Why Priesthood At All?

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Arcturus
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Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Arcturus » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:47 pm

I just listened to one of Bill Reel's really old interviews with Greg Prince.

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/tag/greg-prince/

Bill asked Greg about the priesthood restoration, and Greg had interesting things to say. He said something to the effect, the priesthood is two things 1) authority, and 2) supernatural power. He went on to say that the church's take on authority has been very fluid throughout all of history, and it seems like the priesthood restoration was mainly a matter of authority rather than power. Greg cited a 1931 improvement era article titled "Why Priesthood at All?", which I found and have added as note below. Greg seems to make the case that the importance of priesthood is authority, not power. It seems to me that Greg doesn't want to talk much about the supernatural characteristics of priesthood that TBMs now seem to primarily attribute to Mormon priesthood.

I'm curious what you all think about Greg Prince's, and any others in his camp for that matter (Givens, Bushman), view on Mormon supernaturalism. Do you think he believes the priesthood actually gives you supernatural power? Today, whenever there are talks on priesthood it seems to always go hand in hand with the "power of God given to man" idea. But maybe this is a paradigm of modern Mormonism and they were much more concerned with authority back in the day? Maybe answers to this question are in his book which I haven't read due to its $ tag on Amazon.

The need for authority and organization makes sense to me in a growing church, as Quinn and Prince have both talked about. I personally believe Joseph and Oliver made up the part of heavenly beings appearing to them. But... maybe they experienced a mushroom-trip experience and actually saw John the Baptist, and Peter, James, and John; being primed for the experience in all their religious zeal. :lol:

The priesthood nuances have always been interesting to me, and ultimately was the last piece of information that broke my shelf.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

Arcturus
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Arcturus » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:48 pm

Article from the Improvement Era, October Issue, 1931:

Why Priesthood At All?

Can any one, without the priesthood, pray and have his prayers answered? Or receive the holy ghost, with its gifts and manifestations?

The answer is yes. Men, women and children who do not hold the priesthood have had their prayers answered millions of times in the history of christianity the world over and in the history of this dispensation. Men, women and children also receive the holy ghost after baptism through the laying on of hands.

May one have revelations and visions of heavenly being, without the priesthood?

Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery did so. In May, 1829, John the Baptist appeared to them, and that was before either of them had been ordained. It was John, in fact, who conferred the priesthood upon them. This function of having visions, of course, was exceptional in their case.

If then, one may pray, may have his prayers answered, may have the holy ghost bestowed upon him, and may exercise many of its gifts, without holding any priesthood, what is the place of priesthood on earth?

Chiefly, priesthood functions in connection with organization. That is, the greatest need of priesthood is where there is a service to be performed to others besides ourselves.

Whenever you do anything for, or in behalf of, someone else, you must have the right to do so. If you are to sell property belonging to another, you must have his permission. If you wish to admit an alien to citizenship in our government, you cannot act without having been commissioned to do so by the proper authority.

Now, a religious organization, or the church, is in the last analysis a matter of service. You baptize someone, or you confirm him, or you administer to him in case of sickness, or you give him the sacrament or the priesthood, or you preach the gospel to him––what is this but performing a service?

Now, when it comes to earthly power to perform a definite service, we call it the power of attorney in the case of acting legally for someone else, or the court and the judge where it is a question of acting for the government.

But in the church of Christ this authority to act for others is known as priesthood.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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Emower
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Emower » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:17 pm

Arcturus wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:47 pm
I'm curious what you all think about Greg Prince's, and any others in his camp for that matter (Givens, Bushman), view on Mormon supernaturalism. Do you think he believes the priesthood actually gives you supernatural power?
I dont know that I can really comment very well on what the Neo-Apologists like Givens and such think on that issue. They do seem reticent to talk about the supernaturalism, and that feeds into the many discussions we have had on NOM about how much those guys know/believe about the church being false. There is a big long thread on Givens specifically on here somewhere. I suspect that they are like me, and always grew up with a more pragmatic approach to the priesthood. The priesthood for me was always about authority, and not power. I dont feel like I grew up with an emphasis on healing, protection, or any of that as it related to the priesthood. So in my view, and probably in their view, its a cultural artifact that people who are concerned about their testimony ought to dump. This is why RFM's podcasts about failed healings and such dont really make sense to me and kind of make me mad, because there is a whole contingent of folks out there who just never put that much stock in it anyway, yet we went through the motions.


The priesthood nuances have always been interesting to me, and ultimately was the last piece of information that broke my shelf.
It was a big part of my shelf as well, once I lost the authority aspect it all came down.

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alas
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by alas » Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:04 pm

I always got a huge kick out of how men define priesthood when talking to 12 year old boys compared to talking to women about why women don’t have it. When talking to the boys it is hugely important, church couldn’t function without it, and a great power. They are SOOO lucky they will get it. When talking to women it is about setting up chairs and helping people move and really can’t be used for the man’s own benefit. It really is no big deal, they certainly never wanted it. When talking to the boys it is something they should want more than anything else on earth. When talking to the women, nobody really wants priesthood, but it is a duty they humbly accept.

Yeah, the only thing I can conclude is that it is something that men have that makes them better than women in their own eyes, but they can never let on to the women that they think they are better or they won’t get supper, so they have this huge denial of it being important at all.

To the women they say things about how they can never know the closeness with another human being of carrying a baby and giving birth. I am sure they are nothing but envious as they watch their wives puke in the toilet. Envying child birth is the biggest pot of crock ever invented. But men use it to pretend that women really are not unhappy about the state of equality.

No, I think priesthood really is a way of maintaining power over women and those without priesthood.

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blazerb
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by blazerb » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:30 pm

alas wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:04 pm
I always got a huge kick out of how men define priesthood when talking to 12 year old boys compared to talking to women about why women don’t have it. When talking to the boys it is hugely important, church couldn’t function without it, and a great power. They are SOOO lucky they will get it. When talking to women it is about setting up chairs and helping people move and really can’t be used for the man’s own benefit. It really is no big deal, they certainly never wanted it. When talking to the boys it is something they should want more than anything else on earth. When talking to the women, nobody really wants priesthood, but it is a duty they humbly accept.

Yeah, the only thing I can conclude is that it is something that men have that makes them better than women in their own eyes, but they can never let on to the women that they think they are better or they won’t get supper, so they have this huge denial of it being important at all.

To the women they say things about how they can never know the closeness with another human being of carrying a baby and giving birth. I am sure they are nothing but envious as they watch their wives puke in the toilet. Envying child birth is the biggest pot of crock ever invented. But men use it to pretend that women really are not unhappy about the state of equality.

No, I think priesthood really is a way of maintaining power over women and those without priesthood.
This is absolutely correct. The church will say that everyone has access to the blessings of the priesthood if they are talking to women or mixed company. When they get the men alone, they will talk about how important it is to give blessings. Those talks have become much less common now that the priesthood session is on the internet, but I am sure they still say it if they think it won't get out.

In a similar way, the Q15 will say that we all can get revelation, so it is not a problem that we can't get one of the prophets, seers, and revelators to answer our questions. Then when they show up to a conference, they tell the congregation that it is a special privilege to have one of the Q15 in their meeting.

Priesthood is a way to keep power over women. Keys are the way they keep power over the low status men. The average man is above the average woman in the church's eyes, but those at the top still want to keep the men in line, also. I can't see how this arrangement can stay for much longer. When I was a kid, it was still acceptable to think that women should be at home or be in certain jobs like nursing or teaching. Today, that concept just won't work.

I am sure that the church's teachings about women have damaged my marriage. No matter how egalitarian I want to be, my wife is sure that I see her as a lesser person largely, I think at least, because she has internalized the doctrinal misogyny. I get blamed for the church's awfulness because she can't hold the church responsible. I don't know if that makes much sense, but it's how I feel.

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glass shelf
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by glass shelf » Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:05 am

I don't know what any apologists believe because I don't invest any time in listening to those things, but I agree with Alas. The priesthood is about authority--specifically, the authority of men (and boys who are 11 today) over women.

The power of the priesthood (what I see as the ability to perform miracles) is bunk, but the authority is very much alive. And so is all the sexism that accompanies that.

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alas
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by alas » Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:48 am

I probably should have used the word authority rather than power above, because I think that is more accurate. The men in the church really have no more power than we give them because of the authority that they claim to hold. The church uses the word “authority,” so it sounds less like I am dissing the church. Well, if there is any question, I WAS dissing the church. But an argument is better if it doesn’t insult the opposition quite so much, so the church maintains priesthood for having authority over women, children and men without keys. I know on some of the other feminist blogs I have used words to say how some levels of priesthood are higher or over others and men get all bent out of shape that I am suggesting that a bishop has more power or authority that a deacon and that a deacon has more priesthood authority than his own mother. They scream that it isn’t about rank at all and that it is never about power over others, but what the heck do they think the “authority” gives them? Me thinks they doth protest too much. And in the church structure a deacon is over his mother in priesthood authority. Just watch the careful order the sustaining happens in. But some men can’t stand it when women see the truth about women’s importance in the church structure. Now importance in structure is difference than just importance, just like the beams are more important to the structure of a house than the wall are, but the house wouldn’t be much good without the walls. The men see that the church couldn’t function without the grunt work of women, so the claim that walls are as important, but to the structure the walls don’t really count.

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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by jfro18 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:28 pm

The thing about the priesthood restoration is that it was completely retrofitted and made up, so that's an important thing to get out of the way.

There is no doubt that the priesthood was established (at first) to give the church a true feeling of superiority to other churches and to give men a feeling that they really had authority that no one had held since the 'original church.'

Once Joseph kept getting caught in credibility crisis, he would then add to the restoration story in order to separate and elevate himself from the others... because you can't be a good religious leader if you're equal with others around you.

So I guess I'd just chime in along the others and say the reason they have it is to provide a structure to the church that maintains that men (white men originally) held authority over all others, which allowed them to feel super special and more powerful than those they owned... err controlled... err married.

I just have no patience with the priesthood stuff because it's so silly and yet it makes a lot of believing spouses (wives for the most part) devastated when the other leaves because they lose the "priesthood in the household."

This idea that I am any more or less powerful because I'm in or out of the church is just so stupid, and yet we're trained our entire lives to believe there's some blessing power that flows through us that no one else has. Absolutely ridiculous, and I couldn't see it until I was able to step back.

And the thought of super old white dudes using that "priesthood" power to convince young teenage girls to marry and sex them up is just repulsive, and yet these women were TAUGHT to obey priesthood holders, and that the higher the level, the more obedience that must be shown. There are not strong enough words to express how much I hate that.

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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Reuben » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:12 pm

You don't need an organizing concept like the priesthood to create an impenetrable patriarchy. High-status men have been creating them for thousands of years without it. The thing that's different about the priesthood hierarchy is that it gets its legitimacy by an appeal to the assumed ultimate authority.

In that sense, priesthood is no different from anything else in a fundamentalist, monotheistic religion. We do X because God said so. We don't do Y because God said so. Ritual Z is required because God said so. I can tell you what to do and you have to obey because God said so.

Every normal, everyday practice that people do in groups is imbued with eternal weight. Every claim is unassailable. Change is glacial.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Hagoth
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:37 pm

Arcturus wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:47 pm
But... maybe they experienced a mushroom-trip experience and actually saw John the Baptist, and Peter, James, and John; being primed for the experience in all their religious zeal. :lol:
Naw, they would have seen a goddess. And possibly cephalopods.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:42 pm

alas wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:04 pm
No, I think priesthood really is a way of maintaining power over women and those without priesthood.
Another reason men talk to women differently is that they know if they brag up their amazing powers too much some women are going to actually expect to see it in action. But pre-teen boys are just one step away from believing in Santa Clause and are more easily hoodwinked. It makes it easy to be a big, special man and watch their eyes light up when you tell them that they will have more power in their pinky than the Pope has. At least that's what I was told. It made me wonder why I still had to do dishes and wear second-hand underwear from Deseret Industries.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by moksha » Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:16 pm

I've been told that the Priesthood permeates the universe, sort of like carbon-60 molecules, but more etherial like ectoplasm.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by iwanttotalk » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:14 am

alas wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:04 pm
I always got a huge kick out of how men define priesthood when talking to 12 year old boys compared to talking to women about why women don’t have it. When talking to the boys it is hugely important, church couldn’t function without it, and a great power. They are SOOO lucky they will get it. When talking to women it is about setting up chairs and helping people move and really can’t be used for the man’s own benefit. It really is no big deal, they certainly never wanted it. When talking to the boys it is something they should want more than anything else on earth. When talking to the women, nobody really wants priesthood, but it is a duty they humbly accept.

Yeah, the only thing I can conclude is that it is something that men have that makes them better than women in their own eyes, but they can never let on to the women that they think they are better or they won’t get supper, so they have this huge denial of it being important at all.

To the women they say things about how they can never know the closeness with another human being of carrying a baby and giving birth. I am sure they are nothing but envious as they watch their wives puke in the toilet. Envying child birth is the biggest pot of crock ever invented. But men use it to pretend that women really are not unhappy about the state of equality.

No, I think priesthood really is a way of maintaining power over women and those without priesthood.
Misandry is toxic.

The examples you use are made up. And i dont say this to be mean. But they do not tell women that “the preisthood is about picking up chairs”. And men that “the preisthood is the bestest!!!!”. I will admit that i have heard “men come to church because they need someone to turn the lights on”.

(Which is a euphamism for men will come only if they feel needed.) im not here to discuss the psychooogical differences of men and women and wether women want to be part of a group and men need to feel usefull to the group.

Most radical ideological groups isolate people and then once isolated indoctrinate them. Your views are radicalized in the extreme. Most radicalized groups prey on the desires and insecurities of their targets. I know. I study them and how they operate.

Us/vs them, bunker mentality, false beliefs, extreme examples of violenece agaisnt the in group.

They use deprogramming tactics.

Like do you honestly believe that all men in mormondom have a secret meeting before church to discuss how they are going to talk about preisthood as awesome to boys and downplay it for women?
And that the differences between motherhood and fatherhood are that men dont get to throw up in toilets?

I remeber you before complaining about how men view 12 year old boys as superior to all women because they have the preisthood. What men where? I want to meet these people.

You have started from the premise that men are evil and throw whatever made up example you can to prove it the same way an anti semite might start with the premise it was the jews!

Last time it was that women will be forced to give biological (suffering) birth for eternity to countless children which is something that has never been taught by anyone ever. (The suffering in childbirth comes from the curse of eve biblically)

In the entire time ive known you, i dont recall one complimentary thing youve said about men. Your misandry makes it hard to be here. I constantly feel attacked and marginalized, and forced to give into your delusions about the evil nature of masculinty and manhood.

Arcturus
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Arcturus » Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:16 am

iwanttotalk wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:14 am
In the entire time ive known you, i dont recall one complimentary thing youve said about men. Your misandry makes it hard to be here. I constantly feel attacked and marginalized, and forced to give into your delusions about the evil nature of masculinty and manhood.
Whoa whoa iwanttotalk. I don't think it's okay for you to take personal offense to alas's comments here. I think alas is completely okay to share opinion on how the church approaches gender equality from an "on average" perspective, which I think alas is doing and I completely agree with. That doesn't mean that alas is attacking and marginalizing you personally.

It appears that you're fairly new to NOM; if you haven't noticed there's quite a spectrum of opinion/belief on this forum that may or may not offend you. As a fellow forum user and not an admin, please respect other's opinions/beliefs when you find yourself in disagreement. One reason I love NOM is the respect users have for each other's comments, although there may be disagreement.

Maybe alas is unreasonable on the opinion of gender inequality in the church - maybe alas is reasonable on the subject. What is very different between alas's comment and yours is alas's comment appears to be better thought out / framed, while you appear to be personally attacking alas. If you feel personally attacked, I suggest going about discussing this qualm with alas in a more objective manner.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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alas
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by alas » Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:37 am

iwanttotalk wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:14 am
alas wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:04 pm
I always got a huge kick out of how men define priesthood when talking to 12 year old boys compared to talking to women about why women don’t have it. When talking to the boys it is hugely important, church couldn’t function without it, and a great power. They are SOOO lucky they will get it. When talking to women it is about setting up chairs and helping people move and really can’t be used for the man’s own benefit. It really is no big deal, they certainly never wanted it. When talking to the boys it is something they should want more than anything else on earth. When talking to the women, nobody really wants priesthood, but it is a duty they humbly accept.

Yeah, the only thing I can conclude is that it is something that men have that makes them better than women in their own eyes, but they can never let on to the women that they think they are better or they won’t get supper, so they have this huge denial of it being important at all.

To the women they say things about how they can never know the closeness with another human being of carrying a baby and giving birth. I am sure they are nothing but envious as they watch their wives puke in the toilet. Envying child birth is the biggest pot of crock ever invented. But men use it to pretend that women really are not unhappy about the state of equality.

No, I think priesthood really is a way of maintaining power over women and those without priesthood.
Misandry is toxic.

The examples you use are made up. And i dont say this to be mean. But they do not tell women that “the preisthood is about picking up chairs”. And men that “the preisthood is the bestest!!!!”. I will admit that i have heard “men come to church because they need someone to turn the lights on”.

(Which is a euphamism for men will come only if they feel needed.) im not here to discuss the psychooogical differences of men and women and wether women want to be part of a group and men need to feel usefull to the group.

Most radical ideological groups isolate people and then once isolated indoctrinate them. Your views are radicalized in the extreme. Most radicalized groups prey on the desires and insecurities of their targets. I know. I study them and how they operate.

Us/vs them, bunker mentality, false beliefs, extreme examples of violenece agaisnt the in group.

They use deprogramming tactics.

Like do you honestly believe that all men in mormondom have a secret meeting before church to discuss how they are going to talk about preisthood as awesome to boys and downplay it for women?
And that the differences between motherhood and fatherhood are that men dont get to throw up in toilets?

I remeber you before complaining about how men view 12 year old boys as superior to all women because they have the preisthood. What men where? I want to meet these people.

You have started from the premise that men are evil and throw whatever made up example you can to prove it the same way an anti semite might start with the premise it was the jews!

Last time it was that women will be forced to give biological (suffering) birth for eternity to countless children which is something that has never been taught by anyone ever. (The suffering in childbirth comes from the curse of eve biblically)

In the entire time ive known you, i dont recall one complimentary thing youve said about men. Your misandry makes it hard to be here. I constantly feel attacked and marginalized, and forced to give into your delusions about the evil nature of masculinty and manhood.
Oh, bullsh*t. The men do say things like priesthood is about picking up the chairs and helping people move because I as a woman have been told that! Until you have lived in a woman’s shoes, you have no clue what we get told to justify why men get to keep us as powerless second class citizens. You have no clue.

And it isn’t misanthropy. I like men, probably more than I like women. What I don’t like is men who lord their imagined authority over other human beings.

And I could throw right back at you that in the entire time I have known you....bla bla bla bla.

And if you want to meet “those people”, get your dress on, put on some lipstick and go to church and you’ll meet them. You have no clue what it is really like for women in the church. You aint been one. Men don’t tell women that a 12 year old boy has more authority in the church than his own mother, but the structure of the church is set up that way. And if you can’t see it, you are a blind misogynist.

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alas
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by alas » Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:40 am

And your understanding of psychology leaves something to be desired....like an education.

iwanttotalk
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by iwanttotalk » Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:20 pm

Arcturus wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:16 am
iwanttotalk wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:14 am
In the entire time ive known you, i dont recall one complimentary thing youve said about men. Your misandry makes it hard to be here. I constantly feel attacked and marginalized, and forced to give into your delusions about the evil nature of masculinty and manhood.
Whoa whoa iwanttotalk. I don't think it's okay for you to take personal offense to alas's comments here. I think alas is completely okay to share opinion on how the church approaches gender equality from an "on average" perspective, which I think alas is doing and I completely agree with. That doesn't mean that alas is attacking and marginalizing you personally.

It appears that you're fairly new to NOM; if you haven't noticed there's quite a spectrum of opinion/belief on this forum that may or may not offend you. As a fellow forum user and not an admin, please respect other's opinions/beliefs when you find yourself in disagreement. One reason I love NOM is the respect users have for each other's comments, although there may be disagreement.

Maybe alas is unreasonable on the opinion of gender inequality in the church - maybe alas is reasonable on the subject. What is very different between alas's comment and yours is alas's comment appears to be better thought out / framed, while you appear to be personally attacking alas. If you feel personally attacked, I suggest going about discussing this qualm with alas in a more objective manner.
Why is this dogpiling allowed?

I just want a safe inclusive environment where everyone feels included and accepted.

Misandry is a form of toxicity. One which frankly makes me feel unwelcome and marginalized.

I want to apologize to all boys and men who have had to suffer this kind of abuse. It may seem like the overt hatred of men is not only accepted but predominat.

Please know not all women hate men, and that there are people out there who understand and care.

You are not an evil monster. You are a human. Know that you are loved. And welcome

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Red Ryder
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:22 pm

Knock it off.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

iwanttotalk
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by iwanttotalk » Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:43 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:22 pm
Knock it off.
Im not joking. I have been abused by women severly and am hyper sensitive to women that hate men.

It makes me uncomfortable. And indeed if this is to be a non toxic environment. It is only fair that we all comport ourselves in the proper manner showing dignity to all genders, races, and nationalities.

Why is she allowed to spout off whatever hateful nonsense she wants about men. And thats what it is, Misandrist bigotry. It is quite frankly offensive and demeaning. Aside from being sexist tropes whose examples are entirely fabricated.

Every time i come here i am assaulted by the unwarranted vitrol for maleness.

I understand people have their own experiences. But espousing hatred is never okay. We must be intollerant of intolerance.

Boys are the majority of suicides. Boys are the majority of homeless. Boys are the primary victims of violent crime. They perform more poorly in school and have less access to college. Do we here about how sperm counts and testosterone are dropping without bottom and will result in basically every western male being sterile in 50 years? Or the gutting of the male economy in 2008 and its failure to recover as they spout platitudes about “male power” as they are dying in uncountable deaths of despair?

Everyday we stand silent to this kind of open bigorty is another needless death of a young man whose life has value. This is not some esoteric whataboutism. It is a national emergency. If we do not stand agaisnt this kind of soft violence, then we are complicit. Silence is death. Litterally a matter of life and death.

Boys you are worthwile. You are loved. It will get better.

Arcturus
Posts: 286
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:10 pm

Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Arcturus » Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:51 pm

iwanttotalk wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:43 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:22 pm
Knock it off.

Boys are the majority of suicides. Boys are the majority of homeless. Boys are the primary victims of violent crime. They perform more poorly in school and have less access to college. Do we here about how sperm counts and testosterone are dropping without bottom and will result in basically every western male being sterile in 50 years? Or the gutting of the male economy in 2008 and its failure to recover as they spout platitudes about “male power” as they are dying in uncountable deaths of despair?

Everyday we stand silent to this kind of open bigorty is another needless death of a young man whose life has value. This is not some esoteric whataboutism. It is a national emergency. If we do not stand agaisnt this kind of soft violence, then we are complicit. Silence is death. Litterally a matter of life and death.

Boys you are worthwile. You are loved. It will get better.
Dude. You're okay to believe these things...

Your belief/opinion on misandry is less of an issue than how you're communicating your beliefs/opinions. If this is how you communicate with women in real life then I am not surprised that you "have been abused by women severly and am hyper sensitive to women that hate men."

Please take note of CaptainSalty's comment here and calm down man. If you want to revise my beliefs and open my eyes to the issues of misandry in society today, you really are doing yourself a disservice in how you're doing so as a messenger.
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“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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