Burial in temple clothes

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wtfluff
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Re: Burial in temple clothes

Post by wtfluff » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:38 pm

crossmyheart wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:32 pm
So... since I dont have the golden ticket- can I at least stay in the room? Thoughts?
I'd doubt that a "current" Golden Ticket is a requirement to dress a body, I'd guess it is a "right" as long as a person has been endowed just like how you don't have to have a current ticket to buy or wear Polygamy Panties. Is there a "Recommend Desk" at every funeral home where some retiree's check your current ticket before they let you in? Is the dressing of a body considered some sort of "ordinance, thus requiring a current ticket?

I'd think that the only reason you'd be kicked out of the room completely would be you sisters doing the "shooing," or you might not even be invited at all? If you're outside of the Corridor™, I don't think there will be anyone around to stop you from being there besides your family.


I personally have no desire to "dress" any of my relative's bodies, no matter what kind of clothing. I was right on the cusp of apostasy when the last close relative of mine passed away. I may have been too quick to "nope" right out of helping dress the body, but I think I would have done the same thing as a believer. Do some people view it as some sort of duty that they are bound to? I honestly didn't know it was even an option until that invite, and I don't remember ever being taught anything about this during my believing MORmON career.




Dravin wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:37 pm
You'd think after recreating the bodies of countless generations of humans from scratch that have decomposed to dust that a couple generations of LDS bodies wouldn't be too much more work.
Doesn't MORmON doctrine say that very few people have been resurrected at this point, and the big resurrection party for everyone actually happens after Jesus comes back and murders most of the human population by fire?

Hopefully Elohim has enough power to not screw up too bad... Though I wouldn't mind getting someone else's hair on my noggin, since mine has flown the coop...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Random
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Re: Burial in temple clothes

Post by Random » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:27 pm

1smartdodog wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:40 am
I always think of funerals I have been to where they are laying there in their temple clothes knowing they had not been to the temple in many years or church for that matter.
This was my dad. I don't think he had gone to Church since his brief attempt at repentance when I was maybe a couple of years old (but I suppose it's conceivable that he did . . . maybe . . . but seriously doubtful), but his mother was a very devout believer, and I'm sure she's the reason he was buried in them. (He only went through the temple once; to be sealed to my mom before he went into the merchant marines for WWII, a few months after they had eloped. Yeah, the year-long wait was waived for a lot of servicemen then.)
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: Burial in temple clothes

Post by Random » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:30 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:43 am
she's been raised to think cremation is against the will of God and will make it harder for me to be resurrected.
I completely believed this as a tbm. Now, I look at the women and children in the BoM who were burned alive. Surely, God could resurrect them. Isn't there a Bible scripture that says "nothing is too hard for the Lord"?

Now, I want to be cremated because it's the cheapest burial there is (I want my ashes spread over my garden, if I have one. If not, then in some place in the country), and because I know that God can resurrect anyone, no matter what, if there's a resurrection of all to be had.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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glass shelf
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Re: Burial in temple clothes

Post by glass shelf » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:35 pm

alas wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:28 am
glass shelf wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:00 pm
I actually count having no conflicting feelings about being cremated as one of the positives of leaving Mormonism. I always knew it was what I wanted, but the crazy Mormon beliefs I grew up with in the 80s made me feel like it was "wrong."

My direct instructions to all members of my family

1) If I have any organs worth donating, whoever needs them can have them

2) After that, if science wants my body, send it on over to the program at the state university

3) Burn anything left and spread it out somewhere lovely

4) Go out to eat Mexican food and think of all the good times we had

As a side note--if you haven't told your family about what you want end of life--DO IT. If you would never want to be hooked up to a ventilator and have a feeding tube as a 95yo with dementia, tell them now. This stuff is sooooo important.
This. Get your end of life wishes in writing. My brother didn’t, and they put him on a feeding tube and gave him formulate he was allergic to, and he was throwing up blood and tearing out stitches. Then after months of extra pain and suffering he died any way. I console myself with how much he hated that with the idea that it gave his immediate family time to accept that he wasn’t going to get better. But I couldn’t stand it, so I stayed away.

If you want an Irish wake rather than a Mormon funeral, get it in writing. If you are an organ donor, be sure your family knows. Doctors don’t always see the little notation on your driver’s license. If you want your body cremated, or planted with a tree to rot naturally in a forest, or turned into a diamond, or any thing not a Mormon funeral, make sure it is in writing and your family knows.
It probably did give them peace and time to accept it, but it is so difficult to see. I'm sorry that was so hard for both of you. You're right--everything in writing. Multiple places.

I

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Random
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Re: Burial in temple clothes

Post by Random » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:37 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:29 am
The idea is that at Christ's Second Coming and / or the Day of Resurrection (beliefs vary on exactly how or if those are connected), the graves will be opened and the dead will arise to meet him. If you're Mormon and you've been through the temple surely you want to meet him in your temple clothes to demonstrate your worthiness . . . In your temple clothes you will be better prepared to "walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell." (Brigham Young)
This is what I was taught.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: Burial in temple clothes

Post by Random » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:43 pm

alas wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:28 am
Get your end of life wishes in writing.
Is there a legal form for this? If so, does it vary by state (and what is it called, so I can do an internet search for it)? For example, I'm currently in Utah, but I hope to move to a different state at some point, and don't know if I'd need another form for whatever state I end up in. I most certainly do not want my life artificially extended, nor "heroic" means employed to save me.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

Reuben
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Re: Burial in temple clothes

Post by Reuben » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:12 pm

crossmyheart wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:32 pm
My dyed in the wool mother just let me know my sisters will be the only ones who can dress her at her funeral. (it is coming soon and luckily enough we can make the plans with her)
I think what's going on is some mix of the following two possibilities.

Possibility 1: She's threatening you with social exclusion to try to control you. This is the last attempt she can possibly make.

Possibility 2: She's worried about contaminating sacred things. Older Mormons seem to be much more sensitive to this, possibly because of the pre-1990 blood oaths they took in the temple.

I'd say if it doesn't bother you, keep not letting it bother you. Mixing the sacred with secret combinations tends to mess with people's heads.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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crossmyheart
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Re: Burial in temple clothes

Post by crossmyheart » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:02 am

wtfluff wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:38 pm
crossmyheart wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:32 pm
So... since I dont have the golden ticket- can I at least stay in the room? Thoughts?
I'd doubt that a "current" Golden Ticket is a requirement to dress a body, I'd guess it is a "right" as long as a person has been endowed just like how you don't have to have a current ticket to buy or wear Polygamy Panties. Is there a "Recommend Desk" at every funeral home where some retiree's check your current ticket before they let you in? Is the dressing of a body considered some sort of "ordinance, thus requiring a current ticket?

I'd think that the only reason you'd be kicked out of the room completely would be you sisters doing the "shooing," or you might not even be invited at all? If you're outside of the Corridor™, I don't think there will be anyone around to stop you from being there besides your family.
Reuben wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:12 pm
crossmyheart wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:32 pm
My dyed in the wool mother just let me know my sisters will be the only ones who can dress her at her funeral. (it is coming soon and luckily enough we can make the plans with her)
I think what's going on is some mix of the following two possibilities.

Possibility 1: She's threatening you with social exclusion to try to control you. This is the last attempt she can possibly make.

Possibility 2: She's worried about contaminating sacred things. Older Mormons seem to be much more sensitive to this, possibly because of the pre-1990 blood oaths they took in the temple.

I'd say if it doesn't bother you, keep not letting it bother you. Mixing the sacred with secret combinations tends to mess with people's heads.
Thanks for the common sense advice. I think I am caught up in the emotion of the sibling rivalry. I am the only female who served a mission in the family so my fall from grace was pretty far. But my two righteous sisters are both strong card carrying members and are obviously more worthy than me in every way.

It probably will just be my TBM sisters shooing me out. I think I will stand my ground and stay. But let them perform their sacred duty with their noses held high.

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alas
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Re: Burial in temple clothes

Post by alas » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:30 am

Random wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:43 pm
alas wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:28 am
Get your end of life wishes in writing.
Is there a legal form for this? If so, does it vary by state (and what is it called, so I can do an internet search for it)? For example, I'm currently in Utah, but I hope to move to a different state at some point, and don't know if I'd need another form for whatever state I end up in. I most certainly do not want my life artificially extended, nor "heroic" means employed to save me.
Living will. We set up a family trust for our will and the lawyer gave us copies and made sure they were complete and legal. But I think that it just needs to be notarized. Your doctor also has copies you can pick up. This covers the kinds of situations where you are non-responsive or unconscious and family would have to decide if you get put on a feeding tube, respirator, or whatever. But your next of kin also needs to know smaller details. Like for instance at 85, I want DNR, but the form doesn’t have that kind of specifics, so your next of kin needs to know how you feel about being, say in a vegetative state. Pull out feeding tube? That was what they ended up doing with my brother, but according to his brain scan, a feeding tube should never have been put in. My husband and I knew if we are both injured in a car accident, then the decision falls on the kids, so we needed that besides trusting each other to know what we would want. And sometimes family fights what the spouse says, so the living will out votes family that is unwilling to let go.

As for your funeral preferences, this is not a legal document, unless you do a prepay funeral. Just write it down and put it with your will or whatever legal papers you have for your death.

In my own case, I want my kids and husband to do what is most comforting to them. I am not going to be here to care.

And I do not think they differ by state, because it is a statement for medical personnel of your care wishes, but I am not positive.

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Jeffret
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Re: Burial in temple clothes

Post by Jeffret » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:21 pm

Re-ordering alas's original comments.
alas wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:30 am
And I do not think they differ by state, because it is a statement for medical personnel of your care wishes, but I am not positive.
They definitely vary from state to state. Here's an overview of the requirements by state: Living Wills : State Laws. Everything around this area is dependent on state law depending on where you live: living wills, power of attorney, wills, trusts, probate, etc. If you're really concerned about this area do what alas did, hire a lawyer practicing in your area with expertise in elder or end-of-life issues. There are also websites like legalzoom and Rocket Lawyer where you can pay a fee and go through an automated or semi-automated process. They help you know the requirements but don't necessarily give you legal advice tailored to your situation. Or, you don't really even need an attorney. Here in Colorado I would need two witnesses for health care declaration (living will) but not even any witnesses or notary for durable power of attorney for health care.
alas wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:30 am
Pull out feeding tube? That was what they ended up doing with my brother, but according to his brain scan, a feeding tube should never have been put in. My husband and I knew if we are both injured in a car accident, then the decision falls on the kids, so we needed that besides trusting each other to know what we would want. And sometimes family fights what the spouse says, so the living will out votes family that is unwilling to let go.
Living wills aren't perfect but they're the best way to indicate how you want to be handled when you can't be responsible for yourself. There are many ways they can be subverted, as seen in many cases over the years. Ultimately you're not there in a condition to explain what you really meant or in similar situations, so actual application can be unreliable. If there is a legal challenge, it will get tied up courts, which are notoriously slow so you may not be around to experience the outcome. And you're not available to testify. Having a lawyer prepare your documents helps cover the important conditions and result in something that will be followed. But, you can toss something together and as long as it meets your state's requirements, there's a good chance it will be followed.
alas wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:30 am
As for your funeral preferences, this is not a legal document, unless you do a prepay funeral. Just write it down and put it with your will or whatever legal papers you have for your death.
Yeah, I really don't know how much control you can exert after you've died. The big problem is that you're no longer there to make sure it happens. You no longer have an standing. (That's actually a misuse of the legal term but not the literal one.) It's possible to put conditions in a will or trust but they can be contested and the courts disregard ones they deem unreasonable. And you're not there to file a lawsuit to counter it.
alas wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:30 am
In my own case, I want my kids and husband to do what is most comforting to them. I am not going to be here to care.
That's the way I see it. I can stipulate my wishes, but once I'm gone I'm really not going to care. So, hopefully it will be something meaningful to those left behind. It's reasonable to state one's wishes in that case, but I'm not going to worry about whether they're followed or not.

(I'm not a lawyer but I've paid attention to a number of legal issues and cases over the years to see how complicated things can be. It's one of those things that you can do yourself if it's not very complicated but if it's complicated or you want to make sure you get it right, it's worth paying a professional for their expertise.)
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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wtfluff
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Re: Burial in temple clothes

Post by wtfluff » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:31 am

Random morning thought: Burial in temple clothes = "Virtue signaling for the dead."
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

We are secrets to each other

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Red Ryder
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Re: Burial in temple clothes

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:44 am

I’ve finally come to the mental conclusion that I don’t care upon death what my family dresses me in, what sort of contraption they bury me in, or even what they say or not say at my funeral.

It’s emotional energy there’s no point in spending because of one simple truth:

I will be dead.

As in...
Lights out
Cold
Stiff
Dead
Not coming back
Not going to be resurrected
Lights out
A mere dust pile contained in yellowing polyester temple clothes! :lol:
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Random
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Re: Burial in temple clothes

Post by Random » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:30 pm

Alas and Jeffret, thank you for your advice.

I've told two of my kids that I don't want "heroic" methods to keep me alive, but I think filling out a form would be a good idea. I don't think they'd litigate to change it if I was incapacitated, though they might want more "heroic" measures than I want. (When one sees that a loved one is dying, that seems to change a lot of things previously agreed on.)

One of my daughters told me yesterday that it is legal to compost people in Utah now. It costs as much, maybe more, than cremation (unless one has an expensive cremation?), but at the end, you are a pile of dirt and-apparently-less objectionable to people in charge of places where your children might want to scatter your ashes/dirt.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

Thoughtful
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Re: Burial in temple clothes

Post by Thoughtful » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:43 pm

I am putting it in my will that if Im buried in temple clothes, my wealth goes 100% to philanthropy.

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moksha
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Re: Burial in temple clothes

Post by moksha » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:47 am

wtfluff wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:31 am
Random morning thought: Burial in temple clothes = "Virtue signaling for the dead."
I would assume there are no social norms governing the wearing of white after Labor Day in Spirit Paradise.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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