Latest Lawsuit

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Just This Guy
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Latest Lawsuit

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:02 pm

3 people file a racketeering lawsuit against the LDS church. Claim the church used false promises to extorte labor and money out of members to fuel their businesses and investments.

https://legalnewsline.com/stories/52589 ... mon-church

Curious the legal standing they have here. I do worry that they are representing themselves. Unless they are lawyers themselves, I expect the long arm of KM to reach in and cause trouble.
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wtfluff
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by wtfluff » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:13 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:02 pm
Curious the legal standing they have here. I do worry that they are representing themselves. Unless they are lawyers themselves, I expect the long arm of KM to reach in and cause trouble.
Even if there is actually a legal standing where LD$-Inc. could actually lose, I believe the tactic of K|McC a lot of the time is to simply drag things out until the plaintiffs run out of money. The entire world knows for a fact now that LD$-Inc. has enough reserves to weather any lawsuit thrown at them.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Just This Guy
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:19 pm

I wonder if that could become a viable strategy? Overwhelm them with lawsuits. Hundred or even thousands of lawsuits at a time, all over the world and with different judges and laws until KM can't keep up.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Hagoth
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by Hagoth » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:21 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:13 pm
Even if there is actually a legal standing where LD$-Inc. could actually lose, I believe the tactic of K|McC a lot of the time is to simply drag things out until the plaintiffs run out of money.
Who was the lawyer on MormonStories who has done sexual abuse litigation against the church and says their lawyers were least ethical he has had legal dealings with? And he has litigated on behalf of many victims of Catholic child abuse. Any port in a storm when God's manning the tiller.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Hagoth
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by Hagoth » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:39 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:19 pm
I wonder if that could become a viable strategy? Overwhelm them with lawsuits. Hundred or even thousands of lawsuits at a time, all over the world and with different judges and laws until KM can't keep up.
It works the other way for sure. That's how The "Church" of Scientology got tax exemption.

If enough people did organize to do that, what would be the expected outcome? That the church would give back everyone's tithing? Lose their tax-exempt status? Go out of business?

At least these guys are sticking to Mormon-specific issues. Tom Phillips jumped the shark when he included Adam and Eve and the Flood.

I think the best chance for winning a lawsuit would be to limit your evidence specifically to the Book of Abraham. I doubt there's a court anywhere that wouldn't be compelled to agree that it's a fraud after weighing the evidence.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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wtfluff
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by wtfluff » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:43 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:19 pm
I wonder if that could become a viable strategy? Overwhelm them with lawsuits. Hundred or even thousands of lawsuits at a time, all over the world and with different judges and laws until KM can't keep up.
$100,000,000,000 liquid says to me: NOPE. Not a viable strategy.

Of course they could be down a few billion with the recent stock market volatility, and that could be more as we find out what COVID-19 is going to do to the global economy, but I don't see them going bankrupt any time soon, no matter what happens...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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wtfluff
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by wtfluff » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:44 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:21 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:13 pm
Even if there is actually a legal standing where LD$-Inc. could actually lose, I believe the tactic of K|McC a lot of the time is to simply drag things out until the plaintiffs run out of money.
Who was the lawyer on MormonStories who has done sexual abuse litigation against the church and says their lawyers were least ethical he has had legal dealings with? And he has litigated on behalf of many victims of Catholic child abuse. Any port in a storm when God's manning the tiller.
The one I listened to wasn't MormonStories. Was it the "Sister" Kiwi podcaster who's name escapes me at the moment?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:10 pm

I was just wondering about where that lawsuit was that Quitmormon sent me information on last year. They provided a notification with links to interested parties, but the links no longer work. I'm still not sure where it is, need to do more research:

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-conte ... ormons.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPOH28r9Ff4

I went on to the attorney's website and fill out the contact form for this case to get more information:
https://clients.kayburningham.com/?q=contact&r=class

From there you can also fill out an NDA to get more details.
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Red Ryder
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:56 pm

It will get thrown out on the idea that the individual’s willfully donated tithes and offerings with no expectation of goods or services other than intangible religious benefits. Donations are considered a gift.

Representing themselves shows no attorney wanted to fight the $125B Corporation or they didn’t have a worthy case.

Sure it’s a racket. All organized religion is. But they knew full well that they donated tithes and offerings without an expectation of anything real or tangible. Blessings are a bitch when they have no real value.
Last edited by Red Ryder on Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yobispo
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by Yobispo » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:58 pm

If it gets headlines, and then another gets headlines, etc... then I am happy for the press alone. Time to wash off the squeeky clean enamel.

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Hagoth
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by Hagoth » Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:47 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:56 pm
It will get thrown out on the idea that the individual’s willfully donated tithes and offerings with no expectation of goods or services other than intangible religious benefits.
I keep trying to think of a racket where I can sell intangible promises for tangible cash and the only legal option I can come up with is religion. Even most criminal enterprises have to deliver on something once in a while.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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2bizE
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by 2bizE » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:20 pm

My general sense of this new lawsuit is it says the church tricked us into believing these falsehoods and in order to be saved we have to labor for the church by cleaning church houses, mending fence and pulling weeds at church farms and ranches, going on a mission to do accounting for the church, etc.
I’m excited to hear what happens.
~2bizE

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moksha
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by moksha » Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:16 am

wtfluff wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:13 pm
The entire world knows for a fact now that LD$-Inc. has enough reserves to weather any lawsuit thrown at them.
They might consider asking for a continuance until December 5, 2033, at which time they will have $1 Trillion in the Ensign Peak account.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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blazerb
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by blazerb » Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:46 am

I think the biggest impact of the lawsuit will be negative PR for the church.

I think the lawyer mentioned above who dealt with KM and sex abuse cases is Matt Long. Here is a link to his Mormon Stories interview. He can also be found at Infants on Thrones.
https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/m ... -policies/

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DPRoberts
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by DPRoberts » Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:19 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:21 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:13 pm
Even if there is actually a legal standing where LD$-Inc. could actually lose, I believe the tactic of K|McC a lot of the time is to simply drag things out until the plaintiffs run out of money.
Who was the lawyer on MormonStories who has done sexual abuse litigation against the church and says their lawyers were least ethical he has had legal dealings with? And he has litigated on behalf of many victims of Catholic child abuse. Any port in a storm when God's manning the tiller.
Though not on MS, you may be thinking of Tim Kosnoff on A Thoughtful Faith.

https://www.athoughtfulfaith.org/258-ta ... m-kosnoff/
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
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Phil Lurkerman
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by Phil Lurkerman » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:08 pm

I don't comment much these days, but the Spirit (or maybe indigestion) prompts me to weigh in. Full disclosure, I am NOT a lawyer, but I am a cynical old man.

I read the link describing the law suit and cannot imagine any circumstance where this gets to trial. The statement of claim seems to boil down to, "We just realized that religions can't prove their truth claims and accept donations and volunteer service anyway." Maybe they should sue the Vatican because they can't prove the reality of transubstantiation but still teach that communion is a meaningful part of worship and salvation in the hereafter. And it turns out they also have lots of money.

Sorry for the rant, but claims like these just reinforce the idea that those who leave the church are bitter, foolish, or just plain stupid.

I really try not to be critical - but this suit deserves criticism.
I was once a cafeteria Mormon on a hunger strike. Have since found a buffet elsewhere.

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Phil Lurkerman
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by Phil Lurkerman » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:27 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:39 pm
Just This Guy wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:19 pm
I wonder if that could become a viable strategy? Overwhelm them with lawsuits. Hundred or even thousands of lawsuits at a time, all over the world and with different judges and laws until KM can't keep up.
It works the other way for sure. That's how The "Church" of Scientology got tax exemption.

If enough people did organize to do that, what would be the expected outcome? That the church would give back everyone's tithing? Lose their tax-exempt status? Go out of business?

At least these guys are sticking to Mormon-specific issues. Tom Phillips jumped the shark when he included Adam and Eve and the Flood.

I think the best chance for winning a lawsuit would be to limit your evidence specifically to the Book of Abraham. I doubt there's a court anywhere that wouldn't be compelled to agree that it's a fraud after weighing the evidence.
I agree that the Book of Abraham would be one of the easiest ways to demonstrate a fraudulent claim. However, as far as I can tell, most jurisdictions in the world that allow freedom of religious pursuit largely exempt faith-based organizations from any requirement to prove the validity of their beliefs. I just can't see any strategy based on challenging beliefs or doctrine being successful unless the doctrines in question somehow directly encouraged members to violate existing laws.
I was once a cafeteria Mormon on a hunger strike. Have since found a buffet elsewhere.

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Hagoth
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by Hagoth » Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:26 am

I have to assume that people who do this are more interested in raising awareness than in actually winning a lawsuit that would set a precedent that could cause actual legal harm to any large church. Scientology is the canary in the coal mine. As long as they exist no one else has anything to worry about.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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1smartdodog
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by 1smartdodog » Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:32 am

I think you would have to prove the leaders knew it was all fiction and they are doing it solely for the money. How do you prove what someone believes?

That is the issue with religion. There is no way to test it. You have to die to get an answer and those people don’t testify in court.


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Hagoth
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Re: Latest Lawsuit

Post by Hagoth » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:10 am

Phil Lurkerman wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:08 pm
I don't comment much these days...
Good to hear from you, Lurkster!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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