Individuation and Mormonism

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Not Buying It
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Individuation and Mormonism

Post by Not Buying It » Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:10 am

After all these years, it is surprising how often I come across an insight about the Church I hadn't ever thought about before. I saw this over on Reddit today:
Imo, it comes down to a complete lack of healthy individuation. Mormons take disagreement with their views as a personal attack because they have been taught and encouraged (unhealthily) to conflate their identity with their belief system. Many of them literally cannot distinguish between themselves and their church.

So -- group think? Yes, probably. Due to unhealthy patterns of mental/emotional enmeshment with the organization.
I guess it had never occurred to me how much some members' sense of self is enmeshed with the Church. I'd emphasize that line about "Many of them literally cannot distinguish between themselves and their church".

That is part of why it is so hard to get members to change their minds about the Church in spite of the mountains of evidence that it isn't what it claims to be - they have internalized the Church to the point where to question the Church is to literally call into question their entire identity. I am sure this happens in many religions, yet the Church is so oppressive, controlling, and up-in-your-business that it is probably worse than your average run-of-the-mill religion (but maybe not as bad as Scientology. Mormons don't know how lucky they are to have Scientologists who make them look a little less crazy).
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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2bizE
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Re: Individuation and Mormonism

Post by 2bizE » Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:51 pm

I think this is profound. Our identity is so tied to the church that they are the same. That is what I am really trying to dismantle internally. A similar comparison was the YM and BSA. On Tuesday nights did you have YM or Scouts. It was the same for many.
As I age, I increasingly dislike being micromanaged...but I have let the church control so many aspects of like including what underwear I wear, what I drink, where my money goes, what I do on my days off, how I make love to my wife, how I manage birth control with my wife, what I read, what I study, where I eat, what I do before I eat...
I probably would go to church more often and get more out of it if I could say “I don’t believe in any of your religions teachings, but as a human, I would like to participate and contribute”....and for everyone to be fine with that including my wife.
~2bizE

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alas
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Re: Individuation and Mormonism

Post by alas » Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:16 pm

Years ago I saw a study that asked people to rank how important to their personal identity things were. Mormons had their religion as the #1 most important thing about who they were. No other religious group had their religion in the top 5. It just was not a supper important part of who they were. Normal people put more importance on occupation, marital status, parenthood, hobbies, political affiliation even, but only Mormons listed their religion as the #1 most important aspect of who they were. It totally blew my mind, because I didn’t. But I have never been much of a Mormon.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Individuation and Mormonism

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:49 pm

It’s imbedded in our DNA.

Shortly after birth we are blessed in the front of the chapel.

Shortly after death we are in a casket in the front of the chapel.

There’s a whole lot of indoctrination in between those two events.

At 18 months we get formal church lessons in the nursery. Then primary, YM, YW, seminary, missions, etc.

By the time a missionary returns home they have spent more than 21,000 hours doing something church related.
3 hours of church on Sunday
7 hours a week of FHE/mutual/seminary
= 10 hours a week
X 18 years
= 9,360 hours before a mission

Then include the mission time:

16 hour days on mission
X 730 days
=11,680 hours

That’s 21,040 Hours dedicated to the church by the time you turn 21. This doesn’t count general conference hours, firesides, bishop interviews, etc.

Mormons aren’t individuals because they don’t have time to be. Then couple this with all the restrictions like R rates movies, word of wisdom, and anything to prevent developing your sexuality and no wonder we feel like 3rd graders when we find ourselves out of the church.

It’s been so engrained we STILL feel Mormon even after we stopped believing.
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Ghost
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Re: Individuation and Mormonism

Post by Ghost » Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:53 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:49 pm
It’s been so engrained we STILL feel Mormon even after we stopped believing.
Absolutely. I can't imagine not thinking of myself as "Mormon" on some level whatever the state of my beliefs or practices. I don't think it's entirely irrational, though. I'd think that someone who has been involved in Mormonism for many years doesn't just feel Mormon but has established habits, personality traits, and ways of thinking from the association that are hard or impossible to shake.

Not to mention just the instinct toward tribalism that virtually all humans seem to have.

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2bizE
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Re: Individuation and Mormonism

Post by 2bizE » Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:54 am

Long I have wanted to escape to the remote areas of Alaska to live off the grid and to escape Mormonism. I think this is what it would take to strip your mind and DNA of Mormonism. Maybe there is a warmer alternative than Alaska?
~2bizE

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Individuation and Mormonism

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:13 am

2bizE wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:54 am
Long I have wanted to escape to the remote areas of Alaska to live off the grid and to escape Mormonism. I think this is what it would take to strip your mind and DNA of Mormonism. Maybe there is a warmer alternative than Alaska?
Psilocybin, THC and there's plenty of remote locations throughout the southwest!
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moksha
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Re: Individuation and Mormonism

Post by moksha » Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:01 pm

Not sure about that inability to distinguish ourselves from the Church, but I do know that when I sit back in the recliner my chapel sticks out.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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1smartdodog
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Re: Individuation and Mormonism

Post by 1smartdodog » Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:33 pm

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.


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jfro18
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Re: Individuation and Mormonism

Post by jfro18 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:42 am

This is what broke me in my hope that my wife would ever even discuss this stuff with me.

One time she said something along the lines of 'the church made me who I am' and that if the church were taken out of her, she would have nothing. That line of thinking is dangerously absurd, but it's how she was raised and nothing I can say would convince her that she has worth otherwise.

The second thing that was said at that time was that "the only way i would enter into polygamy would be if the prophet told me I needed to."

And she said that to me with this tone like it was a *good* thing. I wanted to just disappear on the spot... that line still bothers me a lot and it's probably been 6-9 months since she said it.

The way the church takes your identity and then holds it over your head until you die is the most abusive, controlling thing that they can do... and to make it worse, they have convinced these members that the people trying to tell them the truth about the church are the abusive, controlling ones.

You can't win.

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blazerb
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Re: Individuation and Mormonism

Post by blazerb » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:51 am

When I was at BYU, there was a student who was dating a non-member. She reported to us one day that he told her that they could have a great relationship if she just toned down the Mormon thing. That prompted a long discussion about how integrated into our lives Mormonism was. It did not occur to me at the time, but this should have been a sign that the truth claims did not matter to many of us. It was our life. Our identity was tied up in the church in a way that normal religious people would find a little disturbing.

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