God’s divine purpose for COVID-19

[Sheamus Moore]

This crossed my FB feed. The wheels are turning in the minds of TBMs. The last bullet point is precious...

God uses virus to bring families together for important message.

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[Apologeticsislying]

HOLY SHIT YES I can think of billions of better ways!!! Absolutely insane.

[RubinHighlander]

I'm having difficulty finding words. I'd like to interview that person. "So, what you are telling me is...God thought it was a great idea to kill hundred of thousands of people all over the globe, so the world would slow down and listen to general conference. AND it was also a way for missionaries to come home so they could be with their families to hear it over the internet/TV? God thinks a virus was needed for the whole world so that .025% of his special kids could have their special conference to listen to a bunch of old rich white guys tell you they know what God says? I guess God's ways really are not man's ways! Thanks God for that!

Analogy: You have 400 kids around the world (maybe you have a lot of wives), but only .025% of them are special, so just one out of the 400. You really want that special kid to come home to see six hours of rich old white guys you hired as your representatives/instructors/know-it-alls tell that kid some special messages, what you are thinking about, trying to keep that one kid loyal to the tribe. And to make this happen, you are willing to potentially let all 400 of your kids get a deadly virus and probably 13-14 of them will die.

What a great plan!

[Hagoth]

I'm really getting sick and tired of this kind of dumbass desperate need to make this virus about how awesome and important Mormon leaders are.

[RubinHighlander]

I'm really getting sick and tired of this kind of dumbass desperate need to make this virus about how awesome and important Mormon leaders are.

Seriously! If I were RMN, I'd pull that top hat out of the secret closet, get the seer stone from the display in the history museum and pull a rabbit out of my ass when I got up for the final session Sunday!

[wtfluff]

What's the saying?

Hindsight is 20/20?

Or is it: Confirmation Bias is 20/20?


I know that the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy is True™!

[Hagoth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFIyOEE-S6I

[Red Ryder]

That’s a pretty good connection. Let me try.

God didn’t want anymore teen pregnancies so:

The virus caused a world pandemic.
Schools were closed.
Prom was cancelled.
Graduation was cancelled.
The mall was closed.
The movie theaters are closed.
Every possible place teenagers congregate has been closed, thus slowing the transmission rate of teenage sperm impregnating teenage eggs.

If god wanted teenage pregnancies to decline, could you plan a better way?

[Corsair]

This is a good discussion because general conference was already scheduled for this weekend with 15 prophets, seers, and revelators for anyone who wanted to listen to them.

Teen pregnancy may go down but domestic violence is up. I don't think we are going to get a baby boom out of this. There are plenty of blanket effects of social distancing that may or may not support the aims of the LDS church.

Social distancing does not at all support temple worship. Temple work is going way down this year. The church and missionary work has long loved firm handshakes and this social custom may be curtailed in the future. Would we possibly get a change in temple ordinance "policies" out of this?

[Reuben]

Analogy: You have 400 kids around the world (maybe you have a lot of wives), but only .025% of them are special, so just one out of the 400. You really want that special kid to come home to see six hours of rich old white guys you hired as your representatives/instructors/know-it-alls tell that kid some special messages, what you are thinking about, trying to keep that one kid loyal to the tribe. And to make this happen, you are willing to potentially let all 400 of your kids get a deadly virus and probably 13-14 of them will die.

Huh. I get the same answer using different numbers.

Assuming 3 million active members, about 1 in 2500 people worldwide will watch GC. (7.52 billion / 3 million = 2510.) With a mortality rate of 1% and herd immunity happening at around 60% infected, that's 2500*.01*.6 = 15 people dead per Mormon butt squeezed on a family couch to watch GC.

Oh, and this is something they would all hear anyway. The point ostensibly is to hear it as families. Worth killing for?

[Apologeticsislying]

I'm really getting sick and tired of this kind of dumbass desperate need to make this virus about how awesome and important Mormon leaders are.

Since we are on the front end of all this, I suspect Mormon stories will proliferate continually hoping to show us the demonstration of just how great the Lord's prophets are. I wonder if I could ask them, How is that world wide fast and prayer to defeat Corona Virus working out for you? Religion cannot solve it. All it can do is work on the symptoms. One needs no religion to work on symptoms. ALL of us can work together. Religion is supposed to actually HELP SOLVE the problem, if not outright eliminate it. It doesn't and can't. Corona Virus is the litmus tests for all religious claims. Every reason they give for NOT being able to do something is just an ad hoc excuse.

[Reuben]

Okay, here's a psychological take.

Everyone is trying to make sense of things and to feel more secure. How we all do that depends on a number of traits and learned schema.

People either assume an agent or a process when confronting something new. (Teleological bias.) I tend to assume a process. I'll bet the people who send this steaming pile around tend to assume an agent, and don't double-check that assumption.

Now, which agent? How conspiracist are they when afraid and uncertain? A lot? Then it's the Chinese Government, Big Pharma, or the CIA - pull out the learned schema, do some matching, and pick one. I'll bet the people behind this moral travesty are not high in conspiracist ideation; i.e. they're not really into using conspiracies to explain the world.

So they pull out a different schema that involves an agent. Someone Made a Big Mistake? Doesn't explain much at this point. God Did It? Ooooh, that has some nice features. It puts them and their church in the center of everything, which makes them important. Feeling better already! Now why would God do this? Punishment? Whoa, that seems mean and unsafe. But families are so important, y'all. And President Nelson said this GC would be amazing, and he receives revelation, and the church is like, the last champion of families. It all fits!

The explanation assuages uncertainty. It assures them that God is in charge and that they're important to him. Many people would have enough intellectual humility to double-check their conclusions anyway, or value caring about others enough that it feels off.

Some wouldn't. The law of very large numbers kicks in, virtually guaranteeing that self-aggrandizing pap like this is posted by at least one person. It gets shared because fake news reasons, overly focused on because of negativity bias, and we all shake our heads in wonder that people actually fall for this.

[Hagoth]

Religion is supposed to actually HELP SOLVE the problem, if not outright eliminate it. It doesn't and can't. Corona Virus is the litmus tests for all religious claims. Every reason they give for NOT being able to do something is just an ad hoc excuse.

Maybe it would be better to say that religion CLAIMS to actually help solve the problem, when in reality is is more useful in helping individuals deal with a problem at a personal level or find a way to put scary things into perspective within their worldview.

What this fast really accomplished was to bring millions of people together in a way that helped them feel like they might actually be accomplishing something in the face of a situation where they were, in reality, utterly helpless. Lately I tend to break everything church-related into two categories: what it does for the leaders and what it does for the members. They are often two entirely different things.

In a religious studies class I'm taking (online now!) we had a guest lecturer who is a clinical psychologist in Benin where Voodoo is the state religion. She claimed that she has seen more progress in helping patients by working together with Voodoo priests to incorporate aspects of religion into the therapy process than by just treating them according to her training in Western medicine, which often makes no sense to them in their world. In addition to talk therapy, medication, etc, she filters out the potential landmines from the religious influence and encourages the useful aspects (rituals, etc.) that help resolve the problem within the patient's understanding of their world.

I think prayer, fasting and ritualistic scripture study (scan a page each day and feel good about checking off the box) can be helpful in a similar way.

[Just This Guy]

I'm having difficulty finding words. I'd like to interview that person. "So, what you are telling me is...God thought it was a great idea to kill hundred of thousands of people all over the globe, so the world would slow down and listen to general conference. AND it was also a way for missionaries to come home so they could be with their families to hear it over the internet/TV? God thinks a virus was needed for the whole world so that .025% of his special kids could have their special conference to listen to a bunch of old rich white guys tell you they know what God says? I guess God's ways really are not man's ways! Thanks God for that!

Remember this is Mormon god we are talking about here. Yes, that god would think it is a great idea. This is the god that thought that the best way to prep the people of the Americas for his visit was to kill millions in violent, horrible, painful deaths. 100,000 people sick with a virus that most will recover from is nothing compared to the people that have been burnt, drowned, and crushed for Mormon god's ego.

[Hagoth]

God Did It? Ooooh, that has some nice features.

I am seeing both God and Satan getting credit for this. Sometimes by the same people, and it seems to work for them despite the contradiction. The easy fallback is to see "God's hand" in it.

I suppose one way to coordinate God and Satan in all of this is to take the Fundamentalist Evangelical approach that people actually caused it by letting Satan take control of their hearts, which forced God to send a cleansing scourge. That way we can blame ourselves. Well, actually blame our neighbors because people who think that way (especially those who preach that way) seem less likely to find fault in themselves.

[Red Ryder]

I don't think we are going to get a baby boom out of this.

Yeah too many couples working from home together will lead to “sexual distancing” and later increase the divorce rate.

[Corsair]

Yeah too many couples working from home together will lead to “sexual distancing” and later increase the divorce rate.

I spoke to a friend who works in a family law practice and yes, the uptick is starting.

[alas]

Religion is supposed to actually HELP SOLVE the problem, if not outright eliminate it. It doesn't and can't. Corona Virus is the litmus tests for all religious claims. Every reason they give for NOT being able to do something is just an ad hoc excuse.

Maybe it would be better to say that religion CLAIMS to actually help solve the problem, when in reality is is more useful in helping individuals deal with a problem at a personal level or find a way to put scary things into perspective within their worldview.

What this fast really accomplished was to bring millions of people together in a way that helped them feel like they might actually be accomplishing something in the face of a situation where they were, in reality, utterly helpless. Lately I tend to break everything church-related into two categories: what it does for the leaders and what it does for the members. They are often two entirely different things.

In a religious studies class I'm taking (online now!) we had a guest lecturer who is a clinical psychologist in Benin where Voodoo is the state religion. She claimed that she has seen more progress in helping patients by working together with Voodoo priests to incorporate aspects of religion into the therapy process than by just treating them according to her training in Western medicine, which often makes no sense to them in their world. In addition to talk therapy, medication, etc, she filters out the potential landmines from the religious influence and encourages the useful aspects (rituals, etc.) that help resolve the problem within the patient's understanding of their world.

I think prayer, fasting and ritualistic scripture study (scan a page each day and feel good about checking off the box) can be helpful in a similar way.

One of the things I was taught in my psychology and social work classes is that you have to work with your client with whatever belief system they have. So, you get to know them and their culture and religious beliefs well enough to help the client put them to work for themselves. You don’t have to believe the same things, but you have to accept your client’s reality and work within that reality. Then I had the pleasure of doing my internship at Catholic family services, where my clients assumed I was Catholic, and it would shatter the working relationship to correct them, so I got to *be* Catholic for a while. To heal the clients, I had to work within their belief system. Luckily I have been close friends with some Catholics and anything really religious, I referred to the priest I worked with.

So, if someone believes fasting helps, as their healer, you recommend fasting, because if they believe it helps and it doesn’t hurt, then it helps. You use whatever technique you learned in school in the office, then send them home to fast and pray.

When I was about 5, my older brothers and I picked up some plantar warts. Our doctor “bought” the warts from my brothers. They were 8 & 7. He gave them each a nickel for each wart, and told them the warts now belonged to him and he would “collect” them over the next week, so that in a week, they would no longer have warts. Then the doctor looked skeptical little me, and told my mother that I didn’t believe he could buy warts, so he gave her some medicine to put on it over the next few weeks. My brother’s warts magically left to go to their new owner. I ended up having to have the wart burned off because even the topical stuff didn’t work.

Scientists call it the placebo effect. Religious people call it faith. Whatever you call it, don’t underestimate it.

[Hagoth]

One of the things I was taught in my psychology and social work classes is that you have to work with your client with whatever belief system they have. So, you get to know them and their culture and religious beliefs well enough to help the client put them to work for themselves. You don’t have to believe the same things, but you have to accept your client’s reality and work within that reality. Then I had the pleasure of doing my internship at Catholic family services, where my clients assumed I was Catholic, and it would shatter the working relationship to correct them, so I got to *be* Catholic for a while. To heal the clients, I had to work within their belief system. Luckily I have been close friends with some Catholics and anything really religious, I referred to the priest I worked with.


So, if someone believes fasting helps, as their healer, you recommend fasting, because if they believe it helps and it doesn’t hurt, then it helps. You use whatever technique you learned in school in the office, then send them home to fast and pray.

Thanks for sharing that, Alas. Fascinating!

When I was about 5, my older brothers and I picked up some plantar warts. Our doctor “bought” the warts from my brothers. They were 8 & 7. He gave them each a nickel for each wart, and told them the warts now belonged to him and he would “collect” them over the next week, so that in a week, they would no longer have warts. Then the doctor looked skeptical little me, and told my mother that I didn’t believe he could buy warts, so he gave her some medicine to put on it over the next few weeks. My brother’s warts magically left to go to their new owner. I ended up having to have the wart burned off because even the topical stuff didn’t work.

Scientists call it the placebo effect. Religious people call it faith. Whatever you call it, don’t underestimate it.

Also fascinating! Have you heard the RadioLab episode about the placebo effect? It talks about a doctor who used hypnosis to cleanse a man's arm of wall-to-wall warts. He thought he had made a world-changing breakthrough, but It failed to get results for other patients. Possibly because they were less credulous?

[Sheamus Moore]

Well, there you have it. God unleashed a pandemic (along with a couple of earthquakes in diverse places for good effect), and brought missionaries home so that families, gathered together, could do the Hokey Pokey, witness the ‘revelation’ of a new corporate logo, and issue a new and improved proclamation about JS (the 1980 version wasn’t official enough) to penetrate the fleshy tables of our hearts. My FB feed has been flooded with copies of the proc. Oh Hosanna!