Pre-Columbian horses in America

[Jeffret]

There were horses in America before the arrival of white Europeans, according to the doctoral dissertation of Yvette Running Horse Collin. As reported in Yes world, there were horses in Native culture before the settlers came, "historical documents and oral histories present a compelling new story of the horse in the Americas" and "the horse was here well before the settlers." You can also read the dissertation, The relationship between the indigenous peoples of the Americas and the horse: deconstructing a Eurocentric myth, which states that,

the Indigenous horse of the Americas survived the "Ice Age" and the original Peoples of these continents had a relationship with them from Pleistocene times to the time of "First-Contact."

But, wait, before you start increasing the coffers of the Mormon Church, the results may not be reliable. In Pseudoarchaeological claims of Horses in the Americas, archeologist Carl Feagans examines the claims in the dissertation. Some of his criticisms include, 1) the unreliability of oral histories on which she places so much reliance, 2) the inability to reliably date any of the artifacts, and 3) the uncertainty in identifying some of the artifacts as horses.

Of course, there is a Mormon connection. Collin cites Del DowDell and his nephicode.com. Your concerns can be assuaged, because his website states "all of Del's works are both scientifically and historically accurate, and his work on the geography of the Book of Mormon is at the forefront of the many writers in this field."

[alas]

Well, yeah, horses were in the American West before white ***settlers*** arrived. The Spanish brought them in 1500 or around there, and the horses went wild, spread up into the American west. Then in the 1800s white settlers arrived. That is NOT preColumbian horses. The horses in the US genetically trace to the horses that were in Europe. Horses did not survive the ice age, but it wasn’t the ice age that killed them. They died off in the big mega fauna die off, same as the Saber toothed tiger and giant ground sloth. And probably humans. So, she is sorta correct, but still wrong.

[Hagoth]

Of course, there is a Mormon connection. Collin cites Del DowDell and his nephicode.com. Your concerns can be assuaged, because his website states "all of Del's works are both scientifically and historically accurate, and his work on the geography of the Book of Mormon is at the forefront of the many writers in this field."

If you take oral traditions literally you must also accept that the gods made people out of corn.

[Jeffret]

If you take oral traditions literally you must also accept that the gods made people out of corn.

You mean you don't believe that?!

[Jeffret]

As alas mentions all horses in the U.S. descend from horses brought in from other parts of the world. They are all clearly domesticated animals that have been bred for human use. Most likely they were first domesticated in the Eurasian Steppes around 3500 BCE. There are no essentially no wild horses left. Przewalski's horse might qualify, but experts increasingly consider it an old breed of a feral variety. All of the "wild" horses running around in various parts of the Western U.S. are actually feral and not wild.

[Hagoth]

I wonder if genetic lineage research has been done for American horses, as it has for dogs. Not that it would necessarily change the minds of people whose beliefs suggest otherwise.

[Jeffret]

I wonder if genetic lineage research has been done for American horses, as it has for dogs. Not that it would necessarily change the minds of people whose beliefs suggest otherwise.

My daughter is doing some now. Or maybe it's genomic. Is there a difference between genetic and genomic? I'd have to ask her.

I doubt it would convince Bishop DowDell, though, because all his books are completely "scientifically and historically accurate". (If anyone says that you can tell they don't know what they're talking about. Data always has error bars. No historian worth anything will ever say their work is historically accurate.)

[moksha]

All of the "wild" horses running around in various parts of the Western U.S. are actually feral and not wild.

So are all those past claims of "girls gone wild" referring to merely feral girls?

[hmb]

Of course, there is a Mormon connection. Collin cites Del DowDell and his nephicode.com. Your concerns can be assuaged, because his website states "all of Del's works are both scientifically and historically accurate, and his work on the geography of the Book of Mormon is at the forefront of the many writers in this field."

If you take oral traditions literally you must also accept that the gods made people out of corn.

Proof--Stephen King's Children of the Corn. So it's true. Geez, such doubters.

[Exiled]

Mormons need to get to where my TBM, former stake president brother is if the church is to continue. It requires putting blinders on, though. He doesn't care about finding horses or whether or not there is a missing scroll or if the catalyst theory has legs or if a certain leader had an overly active libido. For him, with respect to the church because it is the only way he can rationalize continued belief, what happened prior to his being a conscious human being doesn't matter. What matters is today. What matters is that the book of mormon contains good stuff (it defines itself as being good because it testifies of christ). For him, he couldn't care less about how it closely mirrors the bible or that the plates conveniently disappeared prior to anyone being able to examine them without being required to have some sort of vision. Again, today is the focus and not the inconvenient past. Strap those blinders on tight and pressure your children to toe the line. The church is doing good stuff (it also self-defines what it does as doing good), and its full of good people. So, end of story and on to more pay, pray and obey.

[Hagoth]

Mormons need to get to where my TBM, former stake president brother is if the church is to continue. It requires putting blinders on, though. He doesn't care about finding horses or whether or not there is a missing scroll or if the catalyst theory has legs or if a certain leader had an overly active libido. For him, with respect to the church because it is the only way he can rationalize continued belief, what happened prior to his being a conscious human being doesn't matter. What matters is today. What matters is that the book of mormon contains good stuff (it defines itself as being good because it testifies of christ). For him, he couldn't care less about how it closely mirrors the bible or that the plates conveniently disappeared prior to anyone being able to examine them without being required to have some sort of vision. Again, today is the focus and not the inconvenient past. Strap those blinders on tight and pressure your children to toe the line. The church is doing good stuff (it also self-defines what it does as doing good), and its full of good people. So, end of story and on to more pay, pray and obey.

And that's fine, as long as they also don't expect anyone else to believe it, and are fine with other people doing and sincerely believing as do, regardless of what's going on in the LDS chapel. And that extends to being happy to see your kids go off and find the happiest and best fitting lifestyle for them, regardless of what The Brethren are saying.

[Emower]

I am sort of embarrassed to have BYU on my transcript, but at least it is only for the undergraduate degree. That could only get through a committee in Provo. (I'm assuming it was BYU, I didn't actually click the link)

[Jeffret]

I am sort of embarrassed to have BYU on my transcript, but at least it is only for the undergraduate degree. That could only get through a committee in Provo. (I'm assuming it was BYU, I didn't actually click the link)

It's not. It's University of Alaska.

[Emower]

I am sort of embarrassed to have BYU on my transcript, but at least it is only for the undergraduate degree. That could only get through a committee in Provo. (I'm assuming it was BYU, I didn't actually click the link)

It's not. It's University of Alaska.

Facepalm.

[Palerider]

I am sort of embarrassed to have BYU on my transcript, but at least it is only for the undergraduate degree. That could only get through a committee in Provo. (I'm assuming it was BYU, I didn't actually click the link)

It's not. It's University of Alaska.

Facepalm.

Given that it isn't an actual archeology or science degree, I think many Universities are hesitant to question minority student's efforts too closely, especially in the area of "native studies". I greatly appreciate any effort by Native Americans to pursue higher education but having spoken with numerous Indian students following this particular line of study and even taken classes from Native instructors who have advanced degrees in Native Studies, I would have to question the rigors and methodology involved in these studies.