How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

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Hagoth
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Hagoth » Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:38 am

Lucidity wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:14 am
Maybe confusion or ignorance (although i wouldn't say that to their face.
Or arrogance. I don't mean that in a negative way about your dad or anyone else who is caught up in it. It's the institutional arrogance that is built into your indoctrination from the moment you enter the church nursery. It is re-labeled as testimony, faithfulness, humility, stalwartness, valiance, enduring to the end, putting on the armor of God, etc. It's also a trait that Mormons share with every other group that would also find them mutually misinformed. You are trained to automatically look down on anyone who isn't in the fold. All information that comes from an outside source is de facto inferior to what comes from the COB. Just listen to how your GD teacher talks about Bible scholarship. You don't even need to bother with it. You can just laugh it off because it comes from the "arm of flesh," unlike the stuff in the correlated manual. We even have apostles telling us not to trust our own personal revelation if it doesn't align with what they're saying. You can't trust anyone but them, even yourself, so why would you even consider listening to someone who doesn't "know" something that is stamped and approved by the institution.

There are only a few things you can "know" anyway: Joseph was a prophet, Jesus was the Christ and the LDS Church is the true restoration of his original church, The Book of Mormon is true (also the Bible but only where our leaders assure us it is translated correctly), the Temple is the literal house of God, and Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet. If anything does not fit into those categories you are obliged to write it off as false. Arrogance is an essential component of a testimony.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Hagoth » Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:40 am

deacon blues wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:22 am
This places the emphasis on the evidence :o , not 'feelings.' :roll:
In other words you are relying on the arm-o'-flesh, not the word-o'-God.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Lucidity
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Lucidity » Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:45 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:18 am
Lucidity wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:52 am
I think many members consider a witness from the spirit to be a form of knowledge thats beyond faith. Faith is a Learners Permit that you will need just long enough until you get some solid spiritual witnesses and are upgrade to that real license, the far superior "knowledge".
Unless, of course, you get that faith or knowledge about some kind of belief outside of the church's approved borders, in which case your "knowledge" is either a counterfeit satanic deception or bat-shit-craziness.
Absolutely Hagoth. Always a loophole in the system that brings you back to THE CHURCH IS TRUE. The church's version of "theres an App for that".

Even as a believer I thought Josephs enhanced definition of Faith was dumb: "Faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true". By using the "but which is true" add on they have slyly made every other faith tradition not only wrong, but effectively faithless as well. :roll:

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Hagoth
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Hagoth » Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:47 am

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:28 am
...and feel the same spiritual feelings and that leads them to believe in their leaders just as confidently as the Brighamites do.
It was explained to me by a bishop that they do feel the spirit, but we feel it a LOT more frequently, so we must be correct and they must be false. I wondered who placed the spiritometers in all of the religious meeting halls throughout the world and how they tabulated the data.

Totally off-the-rails tangent: have you ever used the term Brighamite with a believing member to differentiate the CoJCoLDS from other branches? I have. It is taken as an insult.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:28 am

Rule #1: The Church IS true.
Rule #2: See Rule #1.

This is why I don’t engage anymore with TBMs about their doctrines, spiritual feelings, and next big MLM. :lol: :lol:
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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wtfluff
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by wtfluff » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:13 pm

Lucidity wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:52 am
During our family Christmas Party my Uncle, who is a Stake President, gave a long spiritual thought about how he has had people come in and say they believe or have have faith but they don't think its possible to ever truly know (future NOM's??) and of course he went hard about how you don't have to hope or believe but you can KNOW, and that thats where we all need to be spiritually.
Yeah... A bit like when I mentioned that "faith" can have many different definitions, here's where your Uncle (and pretty much ever TCOJCOLDS MORmON) re-defines "knowledge," because, well: It's religion, and you get to make ish up as yo go along to reinforce the fake "knowledge." Especially when it comes to a big, important president of steaks. :D



FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:28 am
I like using the other mormon sects as an example of our epistemological formula leading to different conclusions. For example, the FLDS etc use the same basic formula in proving their prophet to be the true one.

They read the same book of mormon, and feel the same spiritual feelings and that leads them to believe in their leaders just as confidently as the Brighamites do.
This is why I LOVE that one "testimony" in the Spiritual Witnesses video that sounds exactly like it's from a TCOJCOLDS fast Sunday meeting... Until the young lady mentions she's a year out of High School and in a plural marriage. I'd love to play the video for a TCOJCOLDS believer, and pause it just before the polygamy "reveal" and ask the believer if it sounds familiar.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Exiled
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Exiled » Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:01 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:38 am
Lucidity wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:14 am
Maybe confusion or ignorance (although i wouldn't say that to their face.
Or arrogance. I don't mean that in a negative way about your dad or anyone else who is caught up in it. It's the institutional arrogance that is built into your indoctrination from the moment you enter the church nursery. It is re-labeled as testimony, faithfulness, humility, stalwartness, valiance, enduring to the end, putting on the armor of God, etc. It's also a trait that Mormons share with every other group that would also find them mutually misinformed. You are trained to automatically look down on anyone who isn't in the fold. All information that comes from an outside source is de facto inferior to what comes from the COB. Just listen to how your GD teacher talks about Bible scholarship. You don't even need to bother with it. You can just laugh it off because it comes from the "arm of flesh," unlike the stuff in the correlated manual. We even have apostles telling us not to trust our own personal revelation if it doesn't align with what they're saying. You can't trust anyone but them, even yourself, so why would you even consider listening to someone who doesn't "know" something that is stamped and approved by the institution.

There are only a few things you can "know" anyway: Joseph was a prophet, Jesus was the Christ and the LDS Church is the true restoration of his original church, The Book of Mormon is true (also the Bible but only where our leaders assure us it is translated correctly), the Temple is the literal house of God, and Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet. If anything does not fit into those categories you are obliged to write it off as false. Arrogance is an essential component of a testimony.
Great comment! Supposed superiority is part of the mormon package. However, a little dash of contrived humility is added for show.

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Hagoth
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Hagoth » Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:25 pm

Exiled wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:01 am
Supposed superiority is part of the mormon package. However, a little dash of contrived humility is added for show.
Humility is another word that has been redefined within Mormonism. You are taught to always be humble, but think about how you are expected to act when sitting on an airplane next to someone of another religion, compared to how you should act sitting in front of the bishop's desk. In the first instance you are expected to be bold and self-sure with no hesitance in telling the other person that they are wrong and you are right. In the second instance you are expected to bow your head and submit to any request or demand without question.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Lucidity
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Lucidity » Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:21 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:38 am
Lucidity wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:14 am
Maybe confusion or ignorance (although i wouldn't say that to their face.
Or arrogance.
Although I don’t like to think of my family members testimony is a form of arrogance when I examine my perspective on the non-Mormon world while I was a believer “arrogance” would definitely fit in that equation.

I remember coming across a Joel Osteen book at a yard sale and the first thought that flashed in my mind was “you have no authority”, and I instantly dismissed it. Of course I thiught the same thing when a sister was speaking in conference, so that tells you a little bit more about where I was that. Ugh. Grant it some of that was the god awful cadence of every primary president.

Reuben
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Reuben » Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:50 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:25 pm
Exiled wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:01 am
Supposed superiority is part of the mormon package. However, a little dash of contrived humility is added for show.
Humility is another word that has been redefined within Mormonism. You are taught to always be humble, but think about how you are expected to act when sitting on an airplane next to someone of another religion, compared to how you should act sitting in front of the bishop's desk. In the first instance you are expected to be bold and self-sure with no hesitance in telling the other person that they are wrong and you are right. In the second instance you are expected to bow your head and submit to any request or demand without question.
This is one reason it's so hard to detect in yourself. You're supposed to be humble about yourself, so you feel humble, but you're supposed to be arrogant on behalf of the church.

(Another reason is that it feels good, right and safe, so you need someone external to point it out. But if your whole world is built on it, why would you listen? Better to shoot the messenger.)

It doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone in Mormonism that many - maybe most - of the examples of pride in scripture depict this collective pride rather than personal pride. Pharisees: "We have Abraham as our father." Zoramites: "We believe that thou hast elected us."
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by moksha » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:18 am

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:54 am
A discussion of Paul H Dunn regarding epistemology. If the spirit is reliable why did so many get the feels from his BS stories? (The TBM reasoning will be that the principles were true even if the stories were false).
Inspirational speakers use bogus stories all the time to pump up the crowd. The idea is to have the crowd leave the venue feeling inspired in life and also to purchase some of the promotional material. I could see myself walking away with a paperback edition of You Too Can Walk With The Dinosaurs Through Magnetism.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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1smartdodog
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by 1smartdodog » Sun May 03, 2020 7:07 am

I know that god does not care what religion or any religion i adhere to. I know that the trappings and rituals of all religions are for the most part man mad, to give the appearance of godliness ,but they are in effect not recognized by god as having value. I know this because god spoke to me through my mind and confirmed it to me.

Why is my “I know” any less correct than yours? I respect that you know, you need to respect that I know also.


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“Five percent of the people think; ten percent of the people think they think; and the other eighty-five percent would rather die than think.”
― Thomas A. Edison

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Lucidity
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Lucidity » Sun May 03, 2020 9:11 am

Reuben wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:50 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:25 pm

Humility is another word that has been redefined within Mormonism. You are taught to always be humble, but think about how you are expected to act when sitting on an airplane next to someone of another religion, compared to how you should act sitting in front of the bishop's desk. In the first instance you are expected to be bold and self-sure with no hesitance in telling the other person that they are wrong and you are right. In the second instance you are expected to bow your head and submit to any request or demand without question.
This is one reason it's so hard to detect in yourself. You're supposed to be humble about yourself, so you feel humble, but you're supposed to be arrogant on behalf of the church.

(Another reason is that it feels good, right and safe, so you need someone external to point it out. But if your whole world is built on it, why would you listen? Better to shoot the messenger.)

It doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone in Mormonism that many - maybe most - of the examples of pride in scripture depict this collective pride rather than personal pride. Pharisees: "We have Abraham as our father." Zoramites: "We believe that thou hast elected us."
These are some great observation Reuben and Hagoth. I never quite noticed the clear selectiveness with which humility is applied or felt by members.

My mission was known for having a culture of unabashedly calling people, and even the members, to repentance. Words like boldness and zeal were drilled into us as missionaries, and figures like Samual the Laminate were idolized. This was particularly the case when I first got into the mission field.
We got a new MP shortly after I god out out there and he would spend his first 2 years trying to undo this mission culture. But the local Stake Presidents really hated my first Mission Pres. because he pretty much treated the members like feeble fence sitters who lacked faith and were too concerned with how they'd look to help the missionaries, and would say it to their face in Stake Conference. Local leadership saw the missionaries as wrecking havoc by being number focused and leaving the local wards and branches with scores of unconverted inactive new members.

In short many missionaries were treating the member in-group like how members view non-members and it was very off putting to them.

I remember challenging Bro. Mckneely during a dinner appointment to approach all his neighbors by our next visit. When he mentioned they had given all of them a BoM and invited them to church about 6 months ago we insisted that he approach again. He said,"well you know Elders I have to live by these people everyday, their kids are friends with my kids and they know what i believe and that I'm happy to answer any questions." Essentially a big hey I'm not going to endlessly harass my neighbors to make you assholes happy. If they are interested they will let me know.

We were appalled my his weakness and lack of commitment to share the gospel, and Bro. McKneely became a longstanding joke between my companion and my self for a decade to come, until one day my old comp (now one of my best friends) said he actually thought Bro. McKneely was right.
One of the first signs he had become a NOM and was on his way out. I would be about 2 years behind him.

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Lucidity
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Lucidity » Sun May 03, 2020 12:22 pm

Linked wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:08 pm
Point out the logic train and where it can lead to an incorrect conclusion
An update here. I was able to use this with some good results.

My Dads favorite movie is Ben-Hur. Growing up it was on par with any Biblical story and we essentially psychologically grafted it onto the scriptural canon. Even as a non-believer its one of my favorite films.

The strength of the my spiritual confirmations around this story, that I know is fictional, later helped me to question what I understood to be the Holy Ghost and exactly how we can know what exactly is being confirmed by the Spirit.

So i mentioned this to my dad, and said that if the Book of Ben-Hur had been discovered buried in a cave on ancient scrolls that the spiritual confirmation my dad would feel while reading it would be indistinguishable from a bible story he loves. HE AGREED, and said he would be convinced that it is true, as in that it actually happened.

So I extended an olive branch and said maybe the Holy Ghost is a reliable indicator of knowing what is good, moral truth, but i don't think its a reliable way to know what is historically factual. We feel something strongly, but there are many ways to interpret what that means and we often take leap or are told how to interpret it, and then we treat that as fact. Again he tentatively agreed.

I feel it was a successful interaction.

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Hagoth
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Hagoth » Sun May 03, 2020 2:16 pm

Lucidity wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 12:22 pm
So i mentioned this to my dad, and said that if the Book of Ben-Hur had been discovered buried in a cave on ancient scrolls that the spiritual confirmation my dad would feel while reading it would be indistinguishable from a bible story he loves. HE AGREED, and said he would be convinced that it is true, as in that it actually happened.

So I extended an olive branch and said maybe the Holy Ghost is a reliable indicator of knowing what is good, moral truth, but i don't think its a reliable way to know what is historically factual. We feel something strongly, but there are many ways to interpret what that means and we often take leap or are told how to interpret it, and then we treat that as fact. Again he tentatively agreed.
Brilliant.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Linked
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Linked » Mon May 04, 2020 12:45 pm

Lucidity wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 12:22 pm
An update here. I was able to use this with some good results.

My Dads favorite movie is Ben-Hur. Growing up it was on par with any Biblical story and we essentially psychologically grafted it onto the scriptural canon. Even as a non-believer its one of my favorite films.

The strength of the my spiritual confirmations around this story, that I know is fictional, later helped me to question what I understood to be the Holy Ghost and exactly how we can know what exactly is being confirmed by the Spirit.

So i mentioned this to my dad, and said that if the Book of Ben-Hur had been discovered buried in a cave on ancient scrolls that the spiritual confirmation my dad would feel while reading it would be indistinguishable from a bible story he loves. HE AGREED, and said he would be convinced that it is true, as in that it actually happened.

So I extended an olive branch and said maybe the Holy Ghost is a reliable indicator of knowing what is good, moral truth, but i don't think its a reliable way to know what is historically factual. We feel something strongly, but there are many ways to interpret what that means and we often take leap or are told how to interpret it, and then we treat that as fact. Again he tentatively agreed.

I feel it was a successful interaction.
That's great! I think it was really smart to extend the olive branch to avoid being too confrontational. I hope your relationship with your Dad can be what you both want it to be.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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moksha
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by moksha » Tue May 05, 2020 12:57 pm

I was thinking that it would be fun to have one of the true LDS knowers on the Youtube video program, The Hot Ones. It is a show where the interviewees eat progressively hotter chicken wings, till they get to the point of spiciness where they can fold space and foresee the future. It would be fun to pose various epistemological questions along the way till their final answers involved a true burning of the bosom. Plenty of good wholesome milk would be accorded to participants based on their valiancy in the pre-hot wings existence. Just a thought.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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deacon blues
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by deacon blues » Tue May 05, 2020 4:40 pm

Lucidity wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 12:22 pm
Linked wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:08 pm
Point out the logic train and where it can lead to an incorrect conclusion
An update here. I was able to use this with some good results.

My Dads favorite movie is Ben-Hur. Growing up it was on par with any Biblical story and we essentially psychologically grafted it onto the scriptural canon. Even as a non-believer its one of my favorite films.

The strength of the my spiritual confirmations around this story, that I know is fictional, later helped me to question what I understood to be the Holy Ghost and exactly how we can know what exactly is being confirmed by the Spirit.

So i mentioned this to my dad, and said that if the Book of Ben-Hur had been discovered buried in a cave on ancient scrolls that the spiritual confirmation my dad would feel while reading it would be indistinguishable from a bible story he loves. HE AGREED, and said he would be convinced that it is true, as in that it actually happened.

So I extended an olive branch and said maybe the Holy Ghost is a reliable indicator of knowing what is good, moral truth, but i don't think its a reliable way to know what is historically factual. We feel something strongly, but there are many ways to interpret what that means and we often take leap or are told how to interpret it, and then we treat that as fact. Again he tentatively agreed.

I feel it was a successful interaction.
I like this post!
It all makes sense now. Books that made me feel the Spirit: Les Miserables, Lord of the Rings. Mere Christianity. The Four Gospels. D&C 121.
Books that didn't make me feel the Spirit: Most of the Old Testament. Revelation. Book of Mormon. Book of Abraham. D&C 132.
Movies that made me feel the Spirit: Man of La Mancha, Ground Hog Day, It's a Wonderful Life. Several others I can't remember.
Movies that didn't make me feel the Spirit: Dirty Harry, Platoon, King Kong. Countless others I can't remember
God is Love. God is Truth

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2bizE
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by 2bizE » Tue May 05, 2020 6:02 pm

I think the only way is to bear your testimony each month, maybe in different wards and say I believe or I have faith. Start a new trend.

Maybe make some videos explaining how stupid it is to say I know. Make it socially awkward.
~2bizE

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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Lloyd Christmas » Sat May 09, 2020 9:24 pm

I enjoy my brother's approach to this. He was a very successful missionary rising up the position of AP, but during his mission realized the church was just a corporation and acted like any other corporation after seeing behind the scenes in a mission. He left the church shortly after getting home.

He really enjoys when talking to members bearing his new testimony. "I took Moroni's challenge and asked God if the things in the BoM were true, and God answered. I now know that the Book of Mormon is not true. God told me through the promptings of the holy spirit. I know Joseph Smith was not a prophet. God told me so."

I've used his strategy a time or two, and it's really enjoyable to see the loss on a TBMs face. How can they respond? The topic is usually dropped quickly.

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