How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

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Corsair
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Corsair » Sun May 10, 2020 12:24 pm

Lloyd Christmas wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 9:24 pm
He really enjoys when talking to members bearing his new testimony. "I took Moroni's challenge and asked God if the things in the BoM were true, and God answered. I now know that the Book of Mormon is not true. God told me through the promptings of the holy spirit. I know Joseph Smith was not a prophet. God told me so."
That sounds like a great way to start a fight with some of my indignant relatives. Your brother is right and his logic is sound. Bearing testimony fervently does not make something true.

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Hagoth
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Hagoth » Sun May 10, 2020 1:05 pm

Lloyd Christmas wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 9:24 pm
He really enjoys when talking to members bearing his new testimony. "I took Moroni's challenge and asked God if the things in the BoM were true, and God answered. I now know that the Book of Mormon is not true. God told me through the promptings of the holy spirit. I know Joseph Smith was not a prophet. God told me so."
This actually happened to me too. Decades of asking God if the BoM is true and I only got crickets. One time asking if it wasn't true and I got a full-on burning in the bosom, just like I always wanted to get when I was asking if it was true. If at any point I had felt the same feeling while taking Moroni's challenge I would probably have "known" the BoM was true and kept pumping new life into that memory for the rest of my days. What I think actually happened was that the elevation emotion that my brain finally delivered to me was recognition of suppressed acceptance that I didn't really believe it and could stop working so hard to keep making myself believe it is true.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Lucidity
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Lucidity » Mon May 18, 2020 11:56 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 1:05 pm
This actually happened to me too. Decades of asking God if the BoM is true and I only got crickets. One time asking if it wasn't true and I got a full-on burning in the bosom, just like I always wanted to get when I was asking if it was true. If at any point I had felt the same feeling while taking Moroni's challenge I would probably have "known" the BoM was true and kept pumping new life into that memory for the rest of my days. What I think actually happened was that the elevation emotion that my brain finally delivered to me was recognition of suppressed acceptance that I didn't really believe it and could stop working so hard to keep making myself believe it is true.
One of my good friends had this route out as well. Simply put the church didn't work well for him. Left him filled with guild, shame, and feelings of inadequacies. He pray pray and pray to know God was there and no confirmation. For years this was the case. Well 35 yrs into his mormon experience when he was back praying the idea came into his mind that there was no one on the other end. He was suddenly filled with a since of peace. That was it. No church history concerns or DNA evidence needed.

The contrast in both my church experience and exit continues to surprise me.

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2bizE
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by 2bizE » Tue May 19, 2020 10:01 am

My experience probably reflects those of others:
I took Moroni’s challenge to heart. I fasted and prayed to know the Book of Mormon was true. Over a period of months, I read, pondered, and prayed to know the truth. Each time I prayed I felt....nothing. Eventually, I decided just to go along with everyone else. Over time, I socially learned that I knew the BoM was true.
I was part of the “I know” club. I didn’t actually know, I just wanted to believe so bad that I said “I know” when bearing testimony.
How do we socially “un-know” the church is true?
~2bizE

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Hagoth
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Hagoth » Wed May 20, 2020 10:56 am

2bizE wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:01 am
I was part of the “I know” club. I didn’t actually know, I just wanted to believe so bad that I said “I know” when bearing testimony.
How do we socially “un-know” the church is true?
The other version of this is, "...then I heard this voice inside my head say, 'you don't need a manifestation because you already know it's true.'"
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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deacon blues
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by deacon blues » Wed May 20, 2020 2:17 pm

2bizE wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:01 am
My experience probably reflects those of others:
I took Moroni’s challenge to heart. I fasted and prayed to know the Book of Mormon was true. Over a period of months, I read, pondered, and prayed to know the truth. Each time I prayed I felt....nothing. Eventually, I decided just to go along with everyone else. Over time, I socially learned that I knew the BoM was true.
I was part of the “I know” club. I didn’t actually know, I just wanted to believe so bad that I said “I know” when bearing testimony.
How do we socially “un-know” the church is true?
This was true foe me as well. I have often looked back in retrospect and thought that I didn't used the "I know" phrase. I remembered using phrases like "I have faith" and "the Church teaches true principles." Then after my Mom passed away I found letters I wrote to home on my mission. I was a little disappointed in myself when I discovered I had used the phrase: "I know the Church is true." :o :roll: What was I really feeling at the time? :?
God is Love. God is Truth

Reuben
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Reuben » Thu May 21, 2020 1:01 am

deacon blues wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:17 pm
2bizE wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:01 am
My experience probably reflects those of others:
I took Moroni’s challenge to heart. I fasted and prayed to know the Book of Mormon was true. Over a period of months, I read, pondered, and prayed to know the truth. Each time I prayed I felt....nothing. Eventually, I decided just to go along with everyone else. Over time, I socially learned that I knew the BoM was true.
I was part of the “I know” club. I didn’t actually know, I just wanted to believe so bad that I said “I know” when bearing testimony.
How do we socially “un-know” the church is true?
This was true foe me as well. I have often looked back in retrospect and thought that I didn't used the "I know" phrase. I remembered using phrases like "I have faith" and "the Church teaches true principles." Then after my Mom passed away I found letters I wrote to home on my mission. I was a little disappointed in myself when I discovered I had used the phrase: "I know the Church is true." :o :roll: What was I really feeling at the time? :?
Same, but the big realization came during a F&T meeting. It had this form in my head.

"How the hell do they know anything?"

"I'm not like these people."

Social influence broken. My so-called "testimony" flew to pieces two weeks later.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

Lloyd Christmas
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Re: How do we bridge the epistemological divide of “I know”?

Post by Lloyd Christmas » Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:07 am

I remember reading in D&C 46 about "knowing" through the Spirit:

11 For all have not every agift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.

12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.

13 To some it is given by the aHoly Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.


It was a red flag to me when I read this as an active member. It basically said to me that it's ok if you don't feel the "spirit" but that some have to rely on others words. But if everyone is relying on other's words, maybe no one is feeling anything?

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