If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 19

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annotatedbom
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If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 19

Post by annotatedbom » Sun May 10, 2020 6:29 am

For Come Follow Me, lesson 19, May 11-17, Mosiah 18-24

If I wanted to encourage thought and try to understand devout believers better, I might ask:

Isn’t it odd the Book of Mormon is so wordy?

Click here to see the Things to consider for this lesson.

And, here’s a list of some other problems I see in this week’s reading.

Enjoy!
A-Bom

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2bizE
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 19

Post by 2bizE » Sun May 10, 2020 7:14 am

Nice lesson. How does the wordy Book of Mormon work with the concept that Joseph never actually looked at the BoM during “translation”?
~2bizE

annotatedbom
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 19

Post by annotatedbom » Sun May 10, 2020 7:32 am

2bizE wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 7:14 am
Nice lesson. How does the wordy Book of Mormon work with the concept that Joseph never actually looked at the BoM during “translation”?
Thank you!

I think your question is a great one. If the “translation” was not actually derived from and communicating the same things as the characters on plates from ancient Americans, but was a “channeling” by the power of God with little direct association to ancient engravings on metal plates, then maybe more verbosity could be expected. But, then it would seem we’d have to attribute the wordiness to God. Maybe Terryl and Fiona Givens could write a sequel to “The God Who Weeps” called “The God Who Rambles”?

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Hagoth
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 19

Post by Hagoth » Sun May 10, 2020 12:54 pm

Jesus Christ came to the Americas to deliver an important message to his lost sheep and we are told, "And now there cannot be written in this book even a a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people."

Yet there was plenty of room for this:
1 Now it was in the law of Mosiah that every man who was a judge of the law, or those who were appointed to be judges, should receive wages according to the time which they labored to judge those who were brought before them to be judged.

2 Now if a man owed another, and he would not pay that which he did owe, he was complained of to the judge; and the judge executed authority, and sent forth officers that the man should be brought before him; and he judged the man according to the law and the evidences which were brought against him, and thus the man was compelled to pay that which he owed, or be stripped, or be cast out from among the people as a thief and a robber.

3 And the judge received for his wages aaccording to his time—a bsenine of gold for a day, or a senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold; and this is according to the law which was given.

4 Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value. And the names are given by the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation, until the reign of the judges, they having been established by king Mosiah.

5 Now the reckoning is thus—a senine of gold, a seon of gold, a shum of gold, and a limnah of gold.

6 A senum of silver, an amnor of silver, an ezrom of silver, and an onti of silver.

7 A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of barley, and also for a measure of every kind of grain.

8 Now the amount of a seon of gold was twice the value of a senine.

9 And a shum of gold was twice the value of a seon.

10 And a limnah of gold was the value of them all.

11 And an amnor of silver was as great as two senums.

12 And an ezrom of silver was as great as four senums.

13 And an onti was as great as them all.

14 Now this is the value of the lesser numbers of their reckoning—

15 A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of barley.

16 And a shiblum is a half of a shiblon.

17 And a leah is the half of a shiblum.

18 Now this is their number, according to their reckoning.

19 Now an antion of gold is equal to three shiblons.

20 Now, it was for the sole purpose to get again, because they received their wages according to their employ, therefore, they did stir up the people to riotings, and all manner of disturbances and wickedness, that they might have more employ, that they might get money according to the suits which were brought before them; therefore they did stir up the people against Alma and Amulek.
Now that I think about it, maybe this is an indication that the church was actually restored, considering the modern church's interest in money.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Reuben
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 19

Post by Reuben » Sun May 10, 2020 6:42 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 12:54 pm
Jesus Christ came to the Americas to deliver an important message to his lost sheep and we are told, "And now there cannot be written in this book even a a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people."

Yet there was plenty of room for this:
1 Now it was in the law of Mosiah that every man who was a judge of the law, or those who were appointed to be judges, should receive wages according to the time which they labored to judge those who were brought before them to be judged.

2 Now if a man owed another, and he would not pay that which he did owe, he was complained of to the judge; and the judge executed authority, and sent forth officers that the man should be brought before him; and he judged the man according to the law and the evidences which were brought against him, and thus the man was compelled to pay that which he owed, or be stripped, or be cast out from among the people as a thief and a robber.

3 And the judge received for his wages aaccording to his time—a bsenine of gold for a day, or a senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold; and this is according to the law which was given.

4 Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value. And the names are given by the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation, until the reign of the judges, they having been established by king Mosiah.

5 Now the reckoning is thus—a senine of gold, a seon of gold, a shum of gold, and a limnah of gold.

6 A senum of silver, an amnor of silver, an ezrom of silver, and an onti of silver.

7 A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of barley, and also for a measure of every kind of grain.

8 Now the amount of a seon of gold was twice the value of a senine.

9 And a shum of gold was twice the value of a seon.

10 And a limnah of gold was the value of them all.

11 And an amnor of silver was as great as two senums.

12 And an ezrom of silver was as great as four senums.

13 And an onti was as great as them all.

14 Now this is the value of the lesser numbers of their reckoning—

15 A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of barley.

16 And a shiblum is a half of a shiblon.

17 And a leah is the half of a shiblum.

18 Now this is their number, according to their reckoning.

19 Now an antion of gold is equal to three shiblons.

20 Now, it was for the sole purpose to get again, because they received their wages according to their employ, therefore, they did stir up the people to riotings, and all manner of disturbances and wickedness, that they might have more employ, that they might get money according to the suits which were brought before them; therefore they did stir up the people against Alma and Amulek.
I'll see your quote and raise you a parsimonious one.
"The gold ones are Galleons," he explained. "Seventeen silver Sickles to a Galleon and twenty-nine Knuts to a Sickle, it's easy enough. [...]"
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Hagoth
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 19

Post by Hagoth » Sun May 10, 2020 7:19 pm

J. K. Rowling, Prophetess, Seer, and Revelatrix.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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alas
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 19

Post by alas » Mon May 11, 2020 10:45 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 7:19 pm
J. K. Rowling, Prophetess, Seer, and Revelatrix.
There are lots of articles And even college courses on the idea that her books should be considered scripture. Look up “the gospel according to Harry Potter.”

And she teaches a better gospel of love than the LDS Church and “God’s love is conditional” Nelson.

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moksha
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 19

Post by moksha » Sat May 16, 2020 3:18 am

Consider these Book of Mormon “came to pass” stats:
Phrase Times Used
Came to pass 1,355
Come to pass 90
Cometh to pass 2
Total 1,447
The scribes doth wroteth this phrase mightily. Yea, verily, yea!
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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alas
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 19

Post by alas » Sat May 16, 2020 7:08 am

moksha wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 3:18 am
Consider these Book of Mormon “came to pass” stats:
Phrase Times Used
Came to pass 1,355
Come to pass 90
Cometh to pass 2
Total 1,447
The scribes doth wroteth this phrase mightily. Yea, verily, yea!
Apologist hay; Yes, but don’t you know that the Mayas had one symbol that meant “and then it happened” or “it came to pass”. See, this is actually proof of the BoM, see because the Nephites had one symbol for that whole phrase, so they were not being wordy at all, but using very condensed language.

Doubter; but the BoM was written in reformed Egyptian. Did that language have one symbol for that phrase?

Apologist; well, we don’t know because there are no other samples that we have of that language.

Doubter; uh huh.

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Hagoth
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 19

Post by Hagoth » Sun May 17, 2020 6:45 am

alas wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 7:08 am
Apologist hay; Yes, but don’t you know that the Mayas had one symbol that meant “and then it happened” or “it came to pass”. See, this is actually proof of the BoM, see because the Nephites had one symbol for that whole phrase, so they were not being wordy at all, but using very condensed language.
If we're going to play that game we will need to see examples in Mayan writing that use Nephite and Jaredite names, talk about Jesus' visit to the Americas, the great terrain-disfiguring earthquake, the two genocidal wars, stories and concepts taken from the Brass Plates, etc. BoM apologists will point out vague similarities but we should see something that relates specifically to the BoM, since all of that stuff happened in the timeframe of Mayan writing.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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