Thoughts on Romney and his March?

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moksha
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by moksha » Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:11 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:14 pm
As a result of discussion elsewhere about keeping NOM non-political, let's try to remember to start threads like this in the Coffee Shop from now on.
Sometimes doctrine seems intertwined with politics, but as the thread starter, I hear you about the coffee shop. Nothing like a hearty mug of Postum and a bit of the old Calvin Coolidge.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Blashyrkh
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by Blashyrkh » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:44 pm

Absolute hogwash. Mitt Romney marching along with everyone who post a tag on their facebook account regarding BLM or whatever else is the social problem of the day are nothing more than opportunists trying to look good. My daughter doesnt know any black people. We live in the whitest town in the whitest state anywhere. Yet, she has a blm post on her facebook. What was the social problem last year? LQBTQ rights? Its funny how many people who were absolutely horrible to thw gay kids growing up all of the sudde had gay pride flags all over their social media accounts. What will be the social problem next year when BLM fades into the distance? My guess is it will be "Native rights matter." My guess is all of you who two years ago couldnt give one ounce of care about BLM will have little tags on your social media accounts with Native tags everywhere. If you really cared about BLM or LGBTQ rights you would have said something whe it wasnt the socially popular thing to do. Talk about virtue signaling. Good heavens.

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Hagoth
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:05 pm

Blashyrkh wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:44 pm
Absolute hogwash. Mitt Romney marching along with everyone who post a tag on their facebook account regarding BLM or whatever else is the social problem of the day are nothing more than opportunists trying to look good. My daughter doesnt know any black people. We live in the whitest town in the whitest state anywhere. Yet, she has a blm post on her facebook. What was the social problem last year? LQBTQ rights? Its funny how many people who were absolutely horrible to thw gay kids growing up all of the sudde had gay pride flags all over their social media accounts. What will be the social problem next year when BLM fades into the distance? My guess is it will be "Native rights matter." My guess is all of you who two years ago couldnt give one ounce of care about BLM will have little tags on your social media accounts with Native tags everywhere. If you really cared about BLM or LGBTQ rights you would have said something whe it wasnt the socially popular thing to do. Talk about virtue signaling. Good heavens.
Maybe I don't understand what you're saying. Do you think it's impossible for people to gain genuine awareness of social issues and sincerely change their attitudes and motivations? Boy, that would be really sad. Do you believe that your daughter is incapable of genuinely caring about social issues for people who she doesn't personally know? Sure, there's a lot of virtue signally, but it seems very cynical to not make room for people to actually wake up from their prejudices.

My attitudes about LGBTQ issues have certainly evolved over the years- pretty much 180 degrees for that matter. Some of the people I love and care about most now fall into that category. I'm sure I was an absolute a**hole about it once upon a time.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Blashyrkh
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by Blashyrkh » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:14 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:05 pm
Blashyrkh wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:44 pm
Absolute hogwash. Mitt Romney marching along with everyone who post a tag on their facebook account regarding BLM or whatever else is the social problem of the day are nothing more than opportunists trying to look good. My daughter doesnt know any black people. We live in the whitest town in the whitest state anywhere. Yet, she has a blm post on her facebook. What was the social problem last year? LQBTQ rights? Its funny how many people who were absolutely horrible to thw gay kids growing up all of the sudde had gay pride flags all over their social media accounts. What will be the social problem next year when BLM fades into the distance? My guess is it will be "Native rights matter." My guess is all of you who two years ago couldnt give one ounce of care about BLM will have little tags on your social media accounts with Native tags everywhere. If you really cared about BLM or LGBTQ rights you would have said something whe it wasnt the socially popular thing to do. Talk about virtue signaling. Good heavens.
Maybe I don't understand what you're saying. Do you think it's impossible for people to gain genuine awareness of social issues and sincerely change their attitudes and motivations? Boy, that would be really sad. Do you believe that your daughter is incapable of genuinely caring about social issues for people who she doesn't personally know? Sure, there's a lot of virtue signally, but it seems very cynical to not make room for people to actually wake up from their prejudices.

My attitudes about LGBTQ issues have certainly evolved over the years- pretty much 180 degrees for that matter. Some of the people I love and care about most now fall into that category. I was an absolte a**hole
What civil rights laws did Mittens pass while governor? What civil rights laws has he championed while senator? Nada. Its like Joe Biden. I see all of these ads touting all the things he will fix if elected president. Well what in the hell did we elect you vice-president for? What have you actually done as senator to make anything better? Oh but now that there is a popular social cause amongst the citizenry these people are claiming that they have always been at the head of this issue. I dont buy it. Ok maybe 25% of the new believers actually have changed their minds on the issue. The other 75% are simply trying to look as though they care? What are these people actually doing to combat the incarceration rate of black Americans? How about the 80% of black kids living without a father. How about the glorification of the thug culture? Nothing.

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Hagoth
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:59 pm

I'm ok with people getting swept along with the current if it gets them to think about the issues from new perspectives and changes the way they vote. Even if your 25% is right, 25% is a LOT.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by wtfluff » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:11 pm

Image
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Palerider
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by Palerider » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:51 am

wtfluff wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:11 pm
Image
I think Romney knew better a long time ago but he chose to stay in the comfort of his culture rather than truly stand up for something when it counted and when it might have caused him some shaming from his religious superiors.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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wtfluff
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by wtfluff » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:07 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:51 am
I think Romney knew better a long time ago but he chose to stay in the comfort of his culture rather than truly stand up for something when it counted and when it might have caused him some shaming from his religious superiors.
I'm not sure what you're hinting at here, but my post was not really directed at Romney.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Hagoth
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:34 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:51 am
I think Romney knew better a long time ago but he chose to stay in the comfort of his culture rather than truly stand up for something when it counted and when it might have caused him some shaming from his religious superiors.
He had to make the party happy (just as the Tea Party started wagging the dog) and do the bidding of the church without drawing too much attention to his secret vows of loyalty and his special underwear. He ended up doing the crazy dance. I think maybe he has just kind of thrown up his hands lately and decided to start calling it a little more as he sees it. Who knows what's going on inside that hair helmet?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Anon70
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by Anon70 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:37 pm

Not Buying It wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:53 am
Sure all lives matter. Nobody every said they didn't. But you should know how snotty and condescending it sounds when that's your response to "black lives matter". "All lives matter" is seen by the black community as code for "white lives matter more". Because, geez, black people can't even point out their lives matter without white people getting all in a huff about how much they matter too? Whether it is intentional or not, ""all lives matter" feels dismissive to most black people I know. See below. For the all lives matter folks.jpg
This!! And, if “all lives matter” then why do black lives have worse outcomes in almost every economic, social and justice environment? Because we don’t treat black lives like they matter.

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Hagoth
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:12 am

Anon70 wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:37 pm
This!! And, if “all lives matter” then why do black lives have worse outcomes in almost every economic, social and justice environment? Because we don’t treat black lives like they matter.
There are two simple conclusions. One is that black people are inferior to white people. The other is that white people have maintained an economic and social environment which produces those worse outcomes for black (and brown) people. I guess your personal rubber meets the road in how you take action (e.g. voting) either to keep things the way they are or change that environment to something more equitable.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Palerider
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by Palerider » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:47 am

wtfluff wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:07 pm
Palerider wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:51 am
I think Romney knew better a long time ago but he chose to stay in the comfort of his culture rather than truly stand up for something when it counted and when it might have caused him some shaming from his religious superiors.
I'm not sure what you're hinting at here, but my post was not really directed at Romney.
Right, your post wasn't directed towards Romney but good logic has to run in all directions and I thought it applied well to Romney's case which is what the original thread here is about. See Hagoth's response. ;)
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by wtfluff » Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:56 am

Palerider wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:47 am
wtfluff wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:07 pm
Palerider wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:51 am
I think Romney knew better a long time ago but he chose to stay in the comfort of his culture rather than truly stand up for something when it counted and when it might have caused him some shaming from his religious superiors.
I'm not sure what you're hinting at here, but my post was not really directed at Romney.
Right, your post wasn't directed towards Romney but good logic has to run in all directions and I thought it applied well to Romney's case which is what the original thread here is about. See Hagoth's response. ;)
Hmm... Can you show me some evidence that Romney was against racial equality before he participated in the march?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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moksha
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by moksha » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:53 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:56 am
Hmm... Can you show me some evidence that Romney was against racial equality before he participated in the march?
Even though Mitt has a propensity to be slippery on issues, I doubt he would want to dishonor his Father's legacy on this issue.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Palerider
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by Palerider » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:48 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:56 am
Palerider wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:47 am
wtfluff wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:07 pm


I'm not sure what you're hinting at here, but my post was not really directed at Romney.
Right, your post wasn't directed towards Romney but good logic has to run in all directions and I thought it applied well to Romney's case which is what the original thread here is about. See Hagoth's response. ;)
Hmm... Can you show me some evidence that Romney was against racial equality before he participated in the march?
This question is a bit of a non-sequitur. But I'll try to answer it (again) anyway.

Romney had many chances before and after the "revelation" on priesthood to stand up and say it was wrong. What we got was deafening silence. One can only assume he was carrying water for the corporation.

But now he decries inequality (as his church does the same thing) while ignoring or avoiding his own support of an institution that blatantly practiced racism for which it (and he) never even admitted, much less apologized.

Just seems a day late and a dollar short to me. But as I said earlier, better late than never, even when one is virtue signaling....
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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wtfluff
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by wtfluff » Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:38 am

Palerider wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:48 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:56 am
Hmm... Can you show me some evidence that Romney was against racial equality before he participated in the march?
This question is a bit of a non-sequitur. But I'll try to answer it (again) anyway.

Romney had many chances before and after the "revelation" on priesthood to stand up and say it was wrong. What we got was deafening silence. One can only assume he was carrying water for the corporation.

But now he decries inequality (as his church does the same thing) while ignoring or avoiding his own support of an institution that blatantly practiced racism for which it (and he) never even admitted, much less apologized.

Just seems a day late and a dollar short to me. But as I said earlier, better late than never, even when one is virtue signaling....
Interesting. My question is a "non-sequitur," but expecting Romney to call out the racism inherent in his own religion before 1978 isn't?

Ugh... I. Can't. Even...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Palerider
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by Palerider » Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:41 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:38 am
Palerider wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:48 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:56 am
Hmm... Can you show me some evidence that Romney was against racial equality before he participated in the march?
This question is a bit of a non-sequitur. But I'll try to answer it (again) anyway.

Romney had many chances before and after the "revelation" on priesthood to stand up and say it was wrong. What we got was deafening silence. One can only assume he was carrying water for the corporation.

But now he decries inequality (as his church does the same thing) while ignoring or avoiding his own support of an institution that blatantly practiced racism for which it (and he) never even admitted, much less apologized.

Just seems a day late and a dollar short to me. But as I said earlier, better late than never, even when one is virtue signaling....
Interesting. My question is a "non-sequitur," but expecting Romney to call out the racism inherent in his own religion before 1978 isn't?

Ugh... I. Can't. Even...
Nothing illogical or "non-sequitur" about asking why Romney couldn't have called out his own religion's race problem either now or earlier, even before 1978.

There were numerous lower tier leaders in the church who did, some of whom paid a steep price for their efforts.
Therefore, if Romney truly wanted to reject racism both socially and in his religion, he would call for the church to do the right thing and apologize for their past racism and disavow their racist scriptures.

Instead of doing something with real substance that might risk his church standing, he makes symbolic jestures that have no downside.

Also, I have no idea what "Ugh...I. Can't. Even..." is referring to. Feel free to expand if you like.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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wtfluff
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by wtfluff » Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:08 pm

Palerider wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:41 pm
Nothing illogical or "non-sequitur" about asking why Romney couldn't have called out his own religion's race problem either now or earlier, even before 1978.

There were numerous lower tier leaders in the church who did, some of whom paid a steep price for their efforts.
References to these "numerous" call outs?

Was Romney a one of these "lower tier leaders" in the church?

Did you publicly "call out" the church for it's racism etc. before 1978?

Palerider wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:41 pm
Also, I have no idea what "Ugh...I. Can't. Even..." is referring to. Feel free to expand if you like.
It means I need to be done with this thread, but obviously, I don't know enough to do better.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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Hagoth
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:20 am

Palerider wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:41 pm
Instead of doing something with real substance that might risk his church standing, he makes symbolic jestures that have no downside.
His other option was to sit on his ass and scowl at protesters along with his Republican colleagues. Marching in a rally is a symbolic gesture by everyone who participates and, regardless of past evils, I'm glad he made the gesture.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Palerider
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Re: Thoughts on Romney and his March?

Post by Palerider » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:03 am

wtfluff wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:08 pm
References to these "numerous" call outs?

Was Romney a one of these "lower tier leaders" in the church?

Did you publicly "call out" the church for it's racism etc. before 1978?
Romney has been a Stake President. Not sure of the date or what his current calling might be.

But here's one such situation that I have found especially for your information. I'm betting that as intelligent as you are you can happily continue to educate yourself on the other church members who stood up and weren't afraid to confront the church on it's racist doctrines and policies. There's plenty of reading here for those interested.

http://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/ste ... he-letter/

To answer your last question please refer back to my original post on this thread since the answer is already there if you had read just a little more carefully. ;)
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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