Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:40 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:05 pm
If they don't know about the problems then all I can say is shame on them!

They are willfully ignorant and they are not doing their job! Anybody on the planet can find the CES letter and Mormonthink with a few seconds effort and read and understand all of the major issues in a single day of study. Is that beyond the capability of the men who run the organization? What are they good for if they're too timid or ignorant to even make that effort?

We're told they can't do that because they're just too busy. Bullshit. It's what Jfro said, they're cowards.

If what Elder Holland called the"best and brightest" are leaving their church in droves because of specific doctrinal and historical issues while the leaders choose to sit around with their fingers in their noses blinking like deer in the headlights, who is to blame? What do you call a theological institution with no theologians? A multi-level marketing scheme. I mean, this really is a put-up or shut-up situation. Either they're prophets, seers, and revelators who can answer questions or they are cowering phonies, either intentionally or out of ignorance (in the end it doesn't really matter which).

They are bad leaders and useless guides who deserve to have the entire membership get up and walk out on them and take their money, time and talents with them to someplace where they will be respected, because they ain't getting it here.

Whew.
And this rant brings us full circle back to the BH Roberts conundrum, correct? And why this episode of Mormon Stories was absolutely mesmerizing. I'm sure ol' Brigham Henry is quite the cautionary tale for these guys, about what happens to apostles who have the stones to confront the issues head on. THERE ARE NO GOOD ANSWERS TO THE PROBLEMS OF MORMONISM. My God, we all know it, and it's why we're not reading the Come Follow Me manual and are on here ranting about Mormonism instead! It's a completely lose-lose scenario for them; they either do a Roberts/Hauglid, engage with the problems and challenges and thereby lose their faith which they ain't going to do, or pretend the problems don't exist, rely on apologists to do their dirty work and hide behind their $100 billion slush fund.

I'll take door number 2 for $100, Alex. (Come on, that's a great mixed game show metaphor, no?)

It's why BH Roberts and these secret meetings is such an important story, another historically significant event/person that have been buried by the church for rather embarrassing reasons.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Hagoth
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Re: Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922

Post by Hagoth » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:04 am

I tend to see it as a perpetual "not on my watch" challenge for them. Even if a putative prophet/seer/revelator came to the realizations that you or I have about this stuff what are the odds, considering the long climb to the top with all of the perks and adoration and the massive efforts of obfuscation in which they have participated, that they would wake up one morning at age 90-something and decide it would be a good day to pull out the fatal Jenga piece for millions of people. "Nope, I'm not going down in history as that guy. I'll just let the whipper-snappers keep mopping up the spills after me. Maybe someday some other poor sucker will get so backed into a corner that he will have to face the music."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922

Post by jfro18 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:49 pm

And not to bring politics into this, but it's a lot like politicians.

You get to a point where you get people who will literally believe and admire every word you say. You get to travel on taxpayer (tithing payer) money in the nicest accommodations so that people can watch you speak and just smile and shower you with praise/worship.

As Hagoth said, you spent your entire life going the extra mile so you could get to this point, which makes even getting to the point where you believe it's a lie all the more difficult.

And then if you do believe it's a lie, you still want to protect your future, your family's future and reputation, etc. This church is build on nepotism - children of the "top men" are often put in leadership positions which could leave to nicely paid church jobs or even being an "ordained seer."

Look at how Nelson flies around the world in his private jet to go speak in big stadiums. He could do that without all the cost via YouTube or BYU-TV, but he does it because he loves the reactions he gets and I'm sure he feels like it stirs the local population to get more involved in the church.

But with all of that said - each and every one of them are cowards. They demonize those who study this stuff and they twist the knife with family members who still believe and are afraid of what we've become since losing belief. And while they do this they are still too terrified to talk about the problems in a public setting - they can't even sign their names to the gospel topics essays because they have to keep making subtle changes to them.

They know they have no power to heal (or they are in denial), they don't get any special revelations from God, and they know that Joseph Smith got his through a rock that he found as a treasure digger, but they STILL tell the women every year to find a priesthood holder and they still dangle exaltation over everyone's heads as they know (or they are in deep denial and refuse to talk about it) there's no power in any of this.

Sorry for the rant... I'm in a really frustrating place with this stuff lately and it drives me nuts to think of all the damage this church does as the leaders hide behind Deseret News as the only place they'll release statements/talk to. Cowards.

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alas
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Re: Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922

Post by alas » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:23 pm

When you know something and refuse to know it, it is called denial. Yes, it is dishonest, cowardice, willful ignorance, and lying to yourself as well as lying to everybody else. But when the truth is too painful to deal with, it is what cowards do. Basic Freudian defense mechanism. Psych 101. You know it, but are too afraid of it to face it, so your brain “takes care of the problem” by refusing to know.

John supposedly has more education in psychology than I do, but he must have been absent when his classes covered denial ....or maybe he is just in denial about the fact that cowards are going to coward. What gets me is that as a psychologist he is ranting about this as if he has never run into it before, or just doesn’t understand how someone can be staring right at the facts and not see them. But that is denial for you. It is the mother who walks in on her husband having sex with her 10 year old daughter and “doesn’t know.” And then just can’t understand how later that child is more angry with her than the father who raped her. But that mother did not know because knowing then she would have to do something, and here she is pregnant with her sixth kid and no way to support herself and her kids if her husband goes to prison...so her brain just shuts down. She doesn’t make a conscience choice to not think about it. Her brain just shuts down. Like the deer in the headlights that all it can do it stare stupidly at the oncoming lights, too afraid to even run.

A different mother with more courage would protect her child even it it put her in a terrible position.

Well, it the GA had more courage, they would have looked under the bed long before they got to the position of GA. That thing under the bed makes enough noise that of course they know something is there, but they are too afraid to look. But to say they “know” the church is not what it claims is to give them credit for having the courage to look under the bed. Nope. They are too afraid to look under the bed because then they would have to deal with the monster. Better to not know about the monster under the bed who is eating children, as long as they shelter the monster, it won’t eat them. They know the “arrangement” they have with the monster. They ignore it (and protect it at the same time) and it doesn’t eat them. But if they look under the bed, the deal is off and they know the monster will then be after them. So, no, they do not know there is a monster under the bed. They just know the monster will eat them if they look under the bed.

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blazerb
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Re: Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922

Post by blazerb » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:03 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:40 am
And this rant brings us full circle back to the BH Roberts conundrum, correct? And why this episode of Mormon Stories was absolutely mesmerizing. I'm sure ol' Brigham Henry is quite the cautionary tale for these guys, about what happens to apostles who have the stones to confront the issues head on. THERE ARE NO GOOD ANSWERS TO THE PROBLEMS OF MORMONISM. My God, we all know it, and it's why we're not reading the Come Follow Me manual and are on here ranting about Mormonism instead! It's a completely lose-lose scenario for them; they either do a Roberts/Hauglid, engage with the problems and challenges and thereby lose their faith which they ain't going to do, or pretend the problems don't exist, rely on apologists to do their dirty work and hide behind their $100 billion slush fund.
They could accept that Mormonism is not True but could be good and beautiful. Then they could work to make that a reality. This would require a substantial number of GA's, including multiple members of the Q15, to come together, share their doubts, and plan how to go forward. The $100 billion gives a lot of flexibility in that scenario, as well.

Now that I wrote that down, I can see it's more likely that war tapirs will be discovered in archaeological digs in New Mexico.

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jfro18
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Re: Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922

Post by jfro18 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:11 am

John Dehlin is certainly on the warpath against the church now - there is no nuance left in his writings/interviews.

https://www.facebook.com/mormonstories/ ... 3688254301

I definitely would not personally go with a list like that because you can definitely find fault with some of those which of course critics will do to say he's untrustworthy overall, but that's a list that I personally think came out of anger more than anything else.

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Hagoth
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Re: Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:39 am

blazerb wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:03 am
They could accept that Mormonism is not True but could be good and beautiful. Then they could work to make that a reality. This would require a substantial number of GA's, including multiple members of the Q15, to come together, share their doubts, and plan how to go forward. The $100 billion gives a lot of flexibility in that scenario, as well.
But think what that would mean. Imagine you had a church based on the Wizard of Oz and decided one day to tell the membership that the Wizard of Oz is not really true... but it's still good and you should continue to devote your time and money to it. All you have to stop believing in is:

-Dorothy and Toto
-The Wizard
-The Wicked Witch
-The Good Witch
-The Land over the rainbow
-The Yellowbrick Road
-The Emerald City
-Talking scarecrows, tin men and lions
-Flying monkeys
-Teleporting slippers
-Flying houses
-Talking Trees
-Munchkins
-The general narrative
-Etc.

Apart from that the Wizard of Oz is pretty good and could be more-or-less true.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Corsair
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Re: Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922

Post by Corsair » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:15 am

Assuming we ever go back to church, "Studies of the Book of Mormon" by B. H. Roberts would be a great book for carrying around and letting ward members see what a valiant soul you are. I may have to pick this up and visibly read it around my believing family members.

I suppose we have to anticipate FairMormon's response to this. Near the end of the podcast, John Dehlin talks excitedly about producing a history of this incident and other cases of LDS leadership hiding information. FairMormon will inevitably sigh and recompile their existing arguments to match the format of Elder Roberts' book and questions. We already have:
Of course, these were written before Shannon Caldwell Montez completed a Master’s Thesis at the University of Nevada – Reno entitled: “The Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922" and then spoke with John Dehlin.

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blazerb
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Re: Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922

Post by blazerb » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:07 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:39 am
blazerb wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:03 am
They could accept that Mormonism is not True but could be good and beautiful. Then they could work to make that a reality. This would require a substantial number of GA's, including multiple members of the Q15, to come together, share their doubts, and plan how to go forward. The $100 billion gives a lot of flexibility in that scenario, as well.
But think what that would mean. Imagine you had a church based on the Wizard of Oz and decided one day to tell the membership that the Wizard of Oz is not really true... but it's still good and you should continue to devote your time and money to it. All you have to stop believing in is:

-Dorothy and Toto
-The Wizard
-The Wicked Witch
-The Good Witch
-The Land over the rainbow
-The Yellowbrick Road
-The Emerald City
-Talking scarecrows, tin men and lions
-Flying monkeys
-Teleporting slippers
-Flying houses
-Talking Trees
-Munchkins
-The general narrative
-Etc.

Apart from that the Wizard of Oz is pretty good and could be more-or-less true.
I agree that the change would jolt the membership. However, the CoC has made a similar transition to a church built around proclaiming peace and taking action along those lines rather than being the only true and living church. There are enough people who want to do good, that an organization built around doing good can attract a following even when other options exist. Of course, we would go from 15 million members to a much smaller group pretty quickly.

Still those war tapirs in New Mexico are more likely, I know. The Q15 does not want to lose the membership and accompanying revenue.

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Hagoth
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Re: Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:22 am

blazerb wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:07 am
I agree that the change would jolt the membership. However, the CoC has made a similar transition to a church built around proclaiming peace and taking action along those lines rather than being the only true and living church. There are enough people who want to do good, that an organization built around doing good can attract a following even when other options exist. Of course, we would go from 15 million members to a much smaller group pretty quickly.
Let's imagine the church did decide to come clean about all of these difficult issues and wanted to amputate them gradually by picking one major bubble to burst every 5 years or so. Where would/could they start? It would be really tough. There have already been one or two statements about not worrying about the historical aspect of the BoM and focusing on the message. Would they be able to go all the way and admit that it is not historical, but insist that it is nonetheless inspired? The repercussions of that jump up like a sea of red flags.

Here's my advice to the church. Most members don't really care that much about the Book of Abraham. Just admit that Joseph Smith made it up. Not that he channeled it from God Almighty, but that it was his own creation. Go ahead and say he was inspired to do it, but be otherwise honest about it.

The most obvious thing would be to give women the priesthood or to give LGBTQ members equal status. Even those are very difficult to imagine, given the eternal consequences and the under-bus-throwing of the majority of historical leaders. But you know that eventually they are going to have to do such things if they want to survive another century.

But then who needs members when you have $100 billion in your pocket? But what about the adoration of your worshipful admirers? The Age of Robots is upon us... if you have enough money.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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blazerb
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Re: Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922

Post by blazerb » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:48 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:22 am
Let's imagine the church did decide to come clean about all of these difficult issues and wanted to amputate them gradually by picking one major bubble to burst every 5 years or so. Where would/could they start? It would be really tough. There have already been one or two statements about not worrying about the historical aspect of the BoM and focusing on the message. Would they be able to go all the way and admit that it is not historical, but insist that it is nonetheless inspired? The repercussions of that jump up like a sea of red flags.

Here's my advice to the church. Most members don't really care that much about the Book of Abraham. Just admit that Joseph Smith made it up. Not that he channeled it from God Almighty, but that it was his own creation. Go ahead and say he was inspired to do it, but be otherwise honest about it.

The most obvious thing would be to give women the priesthood or to give LGBTQ members equal status. Even those are very difficult to imagine, given the eternal consequences and the under-bus-throwing of the majority of historical leaders. But you know that eventually they are going to have to do such things if they want to survive another century.

But then who needs members when you have $100 billion in your pocket? But what about the adoration of your worshipful admirers? The Age of Robots is upon us... if you have enough money.
I think the most honest thing would be for church leaders to publicize all the problems and acknowledge evidence against the truth claims. However, that won't happen. If they were to follow your advice, I don't think they would say that JS made the BoA up. They would use your word, "inspired." Personally, I would like them to start with polygamy, but with two eternal polygamists at the top that's not going to happen.

If maintaining membership is a priority, they should concentrate on using the $100 billion to perform some good works. Make the membership feel like they are part of something that is improving the world right now. If they shifted from doing work that supposedly benefits the dead to work that visibly helps people immediately, the Q15 could create a culture of helping. There would still be plenty of money to make sure none of the top leadership has any financial problems. As the culture shifts from sketchy doctrine to helping others, the church could shift language on the most problematic issues gradually, like you said. I don't find this approach very honest, but it would probably be more palatable to the Q15 than a totally open discussion of BHR's list of issues.

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Hagoth
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Re: Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:53 am

Ultimately the purpose of the church is not to help people, it is to collect people (i.e. human resources of time, talents & money) and, through those people, even more people who will also devote their time, talents, and money to building up the Kingdom of God on Earth. It is a physical kingdom that can be measured not only in membership numbers (that are distorted anyway) but in real estate, physical construction, stock investments, and dollar signs, with the mandate of getting bigger and more powerful/wealthy. As long as the leaders see that as their purpose, regardless of whatever personal belief hoops they have to jump though to make that possible, they will continue to view the building of temples, malls and business towers as evidence that they are good-and-faithful-servants building God's kingdom so they can reap their reward in the next life.

The fact that they are beginning to stumble and lose control of their narrative after so many decades of growth and hubris must be terrifying.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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