New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Egyptologist Robert Ritner

[wtfluff]

Nothing stifles curiosity and wonder like “God did it”.

The ultimate thought-terminating phrase/cliché?

Likely why similar phrases get used a LOT when it comes to religion.

[moksha]

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/robert-ritner-2/

[jfro18]

I have the 2nd part going right now and the beginning of it is an absolutely perfect takedown of the John Gee podcast last week. Holy hell is that brutal.

And the voices are all correct so whatever happened last week is fixed. Dehlin is no longer possessed by a demon.

[Hagoth]

Dehlin is no longer possessed by a demon.

Try telling that to the people who had him excommunicated.

[Red Ryder]

Dehlin is no longer possessed by a demon.

Try telling that to the people who had him excommunicated.

And Rosebud!

[Yobispo]

I have the 2nd part going right now and the beginning of it is an absolutely perfect takedown of the John Gee podcast last week. Holy hell is that brutal.

And the voices are all correct so whatever happened last week is fixed. Dehlin is no longer possessed by a demon.

This is the apologist beat-down that I have been waiting for.

[jfro18]

I have the 2nd part going right now and the beginning of it is an absolutely perfect takedown of the John Gee podcast last week. Holy hell is that brutal.

And the voices are all correct so whatever happened last week is fixed. Dehlin is no longer possessed by a demon.

This is the apologist beat-down that I have been waiting for.

It delivers in that regard from start to finish - it is just a ruthless takedown where Ritner tells you where Gee and Muehlstein are pulling from and why they know they are wrong but do it anyway.

As I said in part 1 - every member should watch these episodes because they are straightforward and meticulous in looking at what Joseph Smith got wrong, where he pulled from, and why apologists are intentionally deceiving members about what Joseph Smith got wrong.

[blazerb]

Is it possible that the church will remove the facsimiles from the BoA at some point? Really, these are the easiest targets indicating that JS made it all up.

I am about halfway through part 2. This is amazing.

[jfro18]

Is it possible that the church will remove the facsimiles from the BoA at some point? Really, these are the easiest targets indicating that JS made it all up.

I am about halfway through part 2. This is amazing.

I don't think you can at this point - the Book of Abraham itself points to them in the text.

The only way to do it would be to de-canonize the BoA but man that would be quite a gamble for the church to try.

[Not Buying It]

Is it possible that the church will remove the facsimiles from the BoA at some point? Really, these are the easiest targets indicating that JS made it all up.

I am about halfway through part 2. This is amazing.

I don't think you can at this point - the Book of Abraham itself points to them in the text.

The only way to do it would be to de-canonize the BoA but man that would be quite a gamble for the church to try.

Oh, they will do it eventually. Suddenly it will be vogue among members to remind us that the Book of Abraham was never really considered scripture anyway, and down the memory hole it goes. Hey, if you can convince people one year to have "I'm a Mormon" social media profiles and then the next year convince them that use of the word "Mormon" is a victory for Satan, you can get them to buy anything.

[Red Ryder]

Yup. Just start ignoring it today and slowly remove all the references from the online talks, manuals, and magazines.

It’s not like the BoA is top shelf material in the first place. Mainly a fun diagram for kids to flip through during a boring sacrament meeting.

[wtfluff]

Is it possible that the church will remove the facsimiles from the BoA at some point? Really, these are the easiest targets indicating that JS made it all up.

I am about halfway through part 2. This is amazing.

I don't think you can at this point - the Book of Abraham itself points to them in the text.

The only way to do it would be to de-canonize the BoA but man that would be quite a gamble for the church to try.

Oh, they will do it eventually. Suddenly it will be vogue among members to remind us that the Book of Abraham was never really considered scripture anyway, and down the memory hole it goes. Hey, if you can convince people one year to have "I'm a Mormon" social media profiles and then the next year convince them that use of the word "Mormon" is a victory for Satan, you can get them to buy anything.

I just hope it happens in my lifetime, I wanna watch the fallout from the cheap-seats.

Hurry up COJCOLd$-Inc.!

(I don't think it will change much among my believing family members, but I still want to watch.)

Yup. Just start ignoring it today and slowly remove all the references from the online talks, manuals, and magazines.

It’s not like the BoA is top shelf material in the first place. Mainly a fun diagram for kids to flip through during a boring sacrament meeting.

If they de-emphasize BoA, do they also start de-emphasizing the "endowment" and temple attendance also?

Lots of folks like to claim that much of the "endowment" is based on BoA.



Oh, and I also made it through part 2 of the podcast, and my mind continues to be blown. Yeah I knew the BoA was fake, yeah I knew "the issues," but the breakdown that Dr. Ritner brings to the table just rips the apologetics to absolute shreds, and not just the apologetics related to BoA.

[Red Ryder]

If they de-emphasize BoA, do they also start de-emphasizing the "endowment" and temple attendance also?

Lots of folks like to claim that much of the "endowment" is based on BoA.

I’d be happy with them ditching the garments and letting them do whatever the hell they want inside the temple.

As a TBM, I always linked the endowment to the creation story in the Bible. Never once thought of the BoA because I never read it. It was always weird in my mind because I couldn’t understand why Joseph dabbled in Egyptology. Ironically it was after my faith evaporated That I dug in and read up on everything.

You guys talking about these podcasts might just jar me out of my self induced Mormon podcast ban.

Are they really worth it?

[jfro18]

You guys talking about these podcasts might just jar me out of my self induced Mormon podcast ban.

Are they really worth it?

Yes but listen at like 1.7-2x speed as they are over 7 hours combined so far.

[wtfluff]

You guys talking about these podcasts might just jar me out of my self induced Mormon podcast ban.

Are they really worth it?

Yeah, I don't do Mormon Stories 'casts much any more because... They're L___O___N___G___!___!___!

But these Ritner ones, I do think they are worth it. Speed the up like everyone mentions.

[moksha]

Just thinking out loud about wanting to hear an RFM podcast featuring Kerry Shirts and Paul Osborne.

[Just This Guy]

I finished Part 1 last night.

On one hand you have the typical problem of a Mormon Stories podcast that it is in major need of editing. Trimming about half an hour of "ummms" and pauses out wold help the flow and cut the run time.

On the other hand, like the Micheal Coe podcast, this is absolutely fascinating to have one of the top people in the world on the subject going though the BoA in detail and ripping it to shreds.

In a way, I kinda feel sorry for him. A piece of early 19th century fan fiction is really beneath him on a professional level, but sometime you need to it. It's like me having to explain the engineering behind why 9-11 truthers or moon landing hoaxers are completely wrong. The fact that I have to do is pretty sad, but I will do it anyway and hope that someone learns something.

Part 2 is downloaded and in the que...

[Hagoth]

Just thinking out loud about wanting to hear an RFM podcast featuring Kerry Shirts and Paul Osborne.

That would be enormously entertaining!

[Hagoth]

Is it possible that the church will remove the facsimiles from the BoA at some point? Really, these are the easiest targets indicating that JS made it all up.

I think they might, but gradually. Since more and more people read scriptures online the church can make small, incremental changes. They will replace the facsimiles with a link to the facsimile. Then they will remove Joseph's comments from the facsimiles. You will read Abraham's comment about how he included an illustration of his sacrifice. If you bother to follow the link you'll say, "yup, there's a picture of it," but you won't know that there was also a bunch of translation that once went along with it. Then they will be relegated to footnotes. The heading descriptions will continue to morph from literal claims to inspired revelation, and they will talk less and less about it. The message that will get out there will be like Holland's dismissal of the horse problem in the BoM. Get over it, it's not a big deal and it was answered long ago. Your concern with it is just a demonstration of your ignorance.

[Yobispo]

Is it possible that the church will remove the facsimiles from the BoA at some point? Really, these are the easiest targets indicating that JS made it all up.

I think they might, but gradually. Since more and more people read scriptures online the church can make small, incremental changes. They will replace the facsimiles with a link to the facsimile. Then they will remove Joseph's comments from the facsimiles. You will read Abraham's comment about how he included an illustration of his sacrifice. If you bother to follow the link you'll say, "yup, there's a picture of it," but you won't know that there was also a bunch of translation that once went along with it. Then they will be relegated to footnotes. The heading descriptions will continue to morph from literal claims to inspired revelation, and they will talk less and less about it. The message that will get out there will be like Holland's dismissal of the horse problem in the BoM. Get over it, it's not a big deal and it was answered long ago. Your concern with it is just a demonstration of your ignorance.

This is exactly what is going to happen, and it already ticks me off.