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Temple changes
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:00 am
by no1saint
Does anyone know what alterations were made to the endowment recently?
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:32 am
by Corsair
I have not been to the temple yet. There simply are very few open for anyone with a valid temple recommend to check out. My father is a temple recorder and he has not seen details on the new changes either. I asked him about it and he could not tell me any details because he had honestly not seen them yet either. He openly told me that new ceremony changes are as much a surprise for temple staff as they are for patrons.
At the start of 2019, my father only found out about the new ceremony the morning that it was released to the temple. The temple president had a few more days notification, but he saw the new movie along with patrons the day it was released.
As the holder of a "valid" temple recommend, I will happily provide details once I get the chance to see the new ceremony. I truly do not know when that will happen. What we really need is some closet apostate parent going to the temple with a newly called missionary child. There is tiny, non-zero chance that this will be me within the next year.
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:20 pm
by wtfluff
no1saint wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:00 am
Does anyone know what alterations were made to the endowment recently?
EVERYONE has to veil (mask) their faces the entire time they are in the gaudy buildings.
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:43 pm
by 2bizE
From what I understand a new addition to the garment will be added. Because God is a God of plagues and curses, a face mask will now be worn at all times except while showering. It will have the mark of the smile
on the mask, which meaning can only be found at the veil. Those who are general authorities will also wear a face mask, but to distinguish them as GAs, rather than normal members, their masks will have the sign of the Mormon God: $. This will also help deacons know which white guy to pass the sacrament to first in the event a GA visits another ward.
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:39 am
by FiveFingerMnemonic
I have heard rumor from a bishopric acquaintance that in the new version only the witness couple receive the tokens. I wonder if anything changes at the veil.
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:45 am
by Corsair
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:39 am
I have heard rumor from a bishopric acquaintance that in the new version only the witness couple receive the tokens. I wonder if anything changes at the veil.
Honestly, that sounds like a boring, common sense change that would surprise virtually no one. This sounds likely
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:50 pm
by Phil Lurkerman
Corsair wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:45 am
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:39 am
I have heard rumor from a bishopric acquaintance that in the new version only the witness couple receive the tokens. I wonder if anything changes at the veil.
Honestly, that sounds like a boring, common sense change that would surprise virtually no one. This sounds likely
After some thought, I’ve wondered if this might be part of a long-term strategy to gradually reduce Masonic content in the endowment. A lot has already been removed and pulling the tokens out from group participation would be one more step. We’ve already seen the penalties change and then be removed entirely - along with the five points of fellowship.
I know that learning about the overwhelming similarities between the endowment and Masonic ritual was a huge crack in my belief system during my mission in the late 1980s. The less similar they appear, the less shocking the connection might seem to young initiates, and the easier it would be to swallow the idea that Masonry simply acted as a prompt toward inspired restoration.
Getting rid of garment marks would be tougher - but not impossible.
Just a thought.
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:00 am
by no1saint
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:39 am
I have heard rumor from a bishopric acquaintance that in the new version only the witness couple receive the tokens. I wonder if anything changes at the veil.
That makes sense. The parts where there is a high risk of transmission would be with the tokens, the prayer circle and at the veil.
I wonder what that would leave? A streamlined endowment?
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:49 am
by moksha
no1saint wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:00 am
I wonder what that would leave? A streamlined endowment?
Seating participants on a conveyor belt would be a novel idea, but there would have to extensive retrofitting of the Temples.
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:51 am
by nibbler
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:39 am
I have heard rumor from a bishopric acquaintance that in the new version only the witness couple receive the tokens. I wonder if anything changes at the veil.
That makes me wonder whether this round of changes is intended to be temporary. Like they'd roll the changes back after things settle.
I see ITT that there's also an opinion that the change may be permanent, that it's a part of a longer series of changes to phase out masonic elements of the ceremony. If they did that, how might the interaction at the veil change?
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:11 am
by Red Ryder
nibbler wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:51 am
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:39 am
I have heard rumor from a bishopric acquaintance that in the new version only the witness couple receive the tokens. I wonder if anything changes at the veil.
That makes me wonder whether this round of changes is intended to be temporary. Like they'd roll the changes back after things settle.
I see ITT that there's also an opinion that the change may be permanent, that it's a part of a longer series of changes to phase out masonic elements of the ceremony. If they did that, how might the interaction at the veil change?
“Brothers and sisters, you’ve been instructed this fine day, please knock 3 times with the mallot, whisper your new name and testimony to the watchman at the veil, beg for entrance to be with god and your family for eternity, then enter when granted! See you next week!”
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:20 am
by Rob4Hope
no1saint wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:00 am
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:39 am
I have heard rumor from a bishopric acquaintance that in the new version only the witness couple receive the tokens. I wonder if anything changes at the veil.
That makes sense. The parts where there is a high risk of transmission would be with the tokens, the prayer circle and at the veil.
I wonder what that would leave? A streamlined endowment?
ditto.
I can see this change as a way to stream-line and speed the thing up even further. Back in the day when I was slitting my own...<humh>...well, I remember when the men were asked to stand. It made absolute sense because the old geezers were generally asleep at that time.
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:31 pm
by no1saint
How will this affect initiatories? The space used is super confined and having 3 people in there makes it crowded. I wonder if you really need the different stages to go into each cubicle. You could just have one big space now.
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:00 pm
by Corsair
no1saint wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:31 pm
How will this affect initiatories? The space used is super confined and having 3 people in there makes it crowded. I wonder if you really need the different stages to go into each cubicle. You could just have one big space now.
I would love to hear about the discussions in March and April planning for
whatever they end up doing. The cynical part of me imagines that they would possibly have been better off catering to the pandemic skeptics among the church and just keep doing temple worship. It certainly would have demonstrated serious faith as well as been an
excellent test of priesthood power. BYU did cancel classes in 1918, but my great-grandparents did still continue attending church.
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:28 pm
by misterfake371
[/quote]
Getting rid of garment marks would be tougher - but not impossible.
Just a thought.
[/quote]
The LDS leadership can change nearly anything they want. The Church is anti-historical. The members will accept nearly any change and say it's inspired and an example of continuing revelation. They could get rid of garments altogether, they could perform gay marriages in the temples, and they could remove the Book of Abraham from the LDS canon. It's amazing how much power they have over so many people.
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:13 am
by no1saint
Getting rid of garment marks would be tougher - but not impossible.
Just a thought.
[/quote]
The LDS leadership can change nearly anything they want. The Church is anti-historical. The members will accept nearly any change and say it's inspired and an example of continuing revelation. They could get rid of garments altogether, they could perform gay marriages in the temples, and they could remove the Book of Abraham from the LDS canon. It's amazing how much power they have over so many people.
[/quote]
Truth!
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:32 am
by FiveFingerMnemonic
Looks like the church sent an email announcing that folks can submit names for the temple prayer rolls online. Before you get excited about submitting Boaty McBoatface, you have to log into your church account first.
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:40 pm
by wtfluff
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:32 am
Looks like the church sent an email announcing that folks can submit names for the temple prayer rolls online. Before you get excited about submitting Boaty McBoatface, you have to log into your church account first.
So you're saying that someone will actually review the names before they get put in the Magick Hankie Box™?
Do you think someone reviews the current, hand-written names?
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:33 pm
by jfro18
From Reddit:
I know many have asked about the recent changes to the endowment announced by the First Presidency last month. Here are the modifications I can remember from taking my son through the temple for his mission this week:
- Up to 16 people per session, but you must be part of a single group (no combining of smaller groups).
- Only eight temple workers (four male, four female) plus the temple presidency and wives are in the temple at one time.
- Masks are required, though temple workers don't seem to understand social distancing (maybe they were hard of hearing?).
- Hand sanitizer is available throughout the ordinance rooms and other areas of the temple, but we were not compelled to use it, only offered.
- No changes to the initiatory, except that a single person both "washes" and anoints. A second person is present only as a witness.
- In the endowment room, only one male officiator and one female temple worker are present.
- A disclaimer from the First Presidency is given at the beginning of the endowment, similar but shorter (I think) than the previous one, and indicates that changes to the endowment do not change the fundamental doctrines of the temple.
- Slideshow is nearly identical (see next point).
- Tokens are shown on a slide during the presentation before each moment that one is to be given. The witness couple receives tokens from the officiator, but no one else in the room receives them. An explanation is given that the witness couple acts for each person in the session, and all are to consider themselves as having received them.
- Sanitizer at the witness couple's seat is available after receiving each token.
- The true order of prayer is conducted as normal, with no change (I sanitized afterward).
- Veil procedure is the same, except for using hand sanitizer both before and after.
- Temple workers are with you (within 10 feet or so) the entire time, including in the celestial room, which makes it difficult to have private moments with your spouse or family.
Re: Temple changes
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:44 pm
by Mormorrisey
jfro18 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:33 pm
From Reddit:
I know many have asked about the recent changes to the endowment announced by the First Presidency last month. Here are the modifications I can remember from taking my son through the temple for his mission this week:
- Up to 16 people per session, but you must be part of a single group (no combining of smaller groups).
- Only eight temple workers (four male, four female) plus the temple presidency and wives are in the temple at one time.
- Masks are required, though temple workers don't seem to understand social distancing (maybe they were hard of hearing?).
- Hand sanitizer is available throughout the ordinance rooms and other areas of the temple, but we were not compelled to use it, only offered.
- No changes to the initiatory, except that a single person both "washes" and anoints. A second person is present only as a witness.
- In the endowment room, only one male officiator and one female temple worker are present.
- A disclaimer from the First Presidency is given at the beginning of the endowment, similar but shorter (I think) than the previous one, and indicates that changes to the endowment do not change the fundamental doctrines of the temple.
- Slideshow is nearly identical (see next point).
- Tokens are shown on a slide during the presentation before each moment that one is to be given. The witness couple receives tokens from the officiator, but no one else in the room receives them. An explanation is given that the witness couple acts for each person in the session, and all are to consider themselves as having received them.
- Sanitizer at the witness couple's seat is available after receiving each token.
- The true order of prayer is conducted as normal, with no change (I sanitized afterward).
- Veil procedure is the same, except for using hand sanitizer both before and after.
- Temple workers are with you (within 10 feet or so) the entire time, including in the celestial room, which makes it difficult to have private moments with your spouse or family.
This lines up with the rumours I've heard about, but we are still at phase 1 in my area, so I'm a long, long way from seeing this in person. But this all makes sense, and not having to pass the tokens around will save some time. So as was expected, not earth shattering developments.
on the mask, which meaning can only be found at the veil. Those who are general authorities will also wear a face mask, but to distinguish them as GAs, rather than normal members, their masks will have the sign of the Mormon God: $. This will also help deacons know which white guy to pass the sacrament to first in the event a GA visits another ward.