Kidd and Kamorah

[Hagoth]

John Dehlin's podcast about Joseph Smith and Captain Crunch, I mean Kidd, is compelling listening, but there is still a piece missing for me. I would like to see a contemporary source that links Joseph Smith to the island and city of Comora, and Moroni.

Grant Palmer wrote a paper about it in which he says, " It is reasonable to assert that Joseph Smith's hill in the "land of Camorah [Comorah/Cumorah*].
city of Moroni," and "land of Moroni," is connected with the "ilhas [islands] de Comoro/Camora," the Moroni/Meroni settlements, and these priate adventures." (Grant Palmer, Joseph Smith, Captain, Kidd, Cumorah, and Moroni, The John Whitmer Historical Association Journal, Vol. 34, No.1; 50-57)

It is pretty well established that Joseph was enamored with Kidd and probably believed, like many of the people around him, that there was buried pirate booty to be found in New England dirt, but I haven't seen a compellingly specific reference to connect Joseph to legends that mention Camora/Comoro (the island) and Moroni (the city) apart from testimonies that he knew a lot about Kidd.

Palmer establishes that many European ships, and particularly pirate ships including Kidd's, used the anchorage at Moroni, and that many of Kidd's most dramatic pirate adventures occurred in the vicinity of Moroni on Grand Comoro. He even states that Kidd was hanged for crimes committed in the area of Comoros, but he doesn't quote a specific source that might have been available to Joseph.

An interesting detail from Palmer's article that, if I recall correctly, Dehlin didn't mention is that Porter Rockwell is reported to have said that Joseph was specifically looking for Kidd's treasure in places like the Hill Cumorah, and that he knew that because he had personally participated in the treasure hunts.

* the various spellings of JS's scribes

[jfro18]

I need to check out Consiglieri's podcast on this - I listened to John Dehlin's one from a week or two ago and it's, to me, just an area that critics don't need to touch to be honest.

To your point - it's missing that final link, and until that link is better established I wish it was not in the CES Letter because apologists launch into that first chapter with the maps and plagiarism claims and use that to hit the entire letter. My wife cited that as her reason for not reading through it, although I know she was *looking* for a reason to not read it as well.

But it's fun to look at and talk about for sure - I just wish as Hagoth said that we could find that final link to the chain between Joseph Smith and the Captain Kidd lore of "Camorah."

[Hagoth]

I need to check out Consiglieri's podcast on this - I listened to John Dehlin's one from a week or two ago...

Oops, my mistake it was John Dehlin, not RFM. I will go back and edit the original so jfro looks silly instead of me.

[Hagoth]

To your point - it's missing that final link, and until that link is better established I wish it was not in the CES Letter because apologists launch into that first chapter with the maps and plagiarism claims and use that to hit the entire letter. My wife cited that as her reason for not reading through it, although I know she was *looking* for a reason to not read it as well.

But it's fun to look at and talk about for sure - I just wish as Hagoth said that we could find that final link to the chain between Joseph Smith and the Captain Kidd lore of "Camorah."

I think the best use of this factoid is to acknowledge that it might be a coincidence in the same way that NHM might be a coincidence. "I'll see your coincidence, Mr. Apologist, and raise you an even bigger one." If Joseph could coincidentally come up with a name of a place and a character in his book that are very tightly associated both in the book and the real-world geographically, then three letters carved on a stone that might spell a word from his book maybe isn't any kind of bullseye at all. And both the angel/hill story and the pirate/island story are directly related to treasure digging and buried gold. That's quite a coincidence, and a meaty offering to surrender on the alter when confronted with other potential coincidences.

[blazerb]

Don't we know that the Smith family worked with shippers? Wasn't there a lost shipment of ginseng or something that ruined them at one point?

I don't know if that would provide a conclusive link, but sailors tell stories almost as much as former pilots. JS could have heard about Moroni and the Comoros Islands without a written source if he were around the docks watching his father make arrangements.

I don't think this solves the problem, but it may help put the problem into context. Of course, this might be a bit too long of a long shot.

[moksha]

Yes, what did Smith know and when did he first know it? Did Joseph ever draw any maps with X marks the spot?

[jfro18]

I think the best use of this factoid is to acknowledge that it might be a coincidence in the same way that NHM might be a coincidence. "I'll see your coincidence, Mr. Apologist, and raise you an even bigger one." If Joseph could coincidentally come up with a name of a place and a character in his book that are very tightly associated both in the book and the real-world geographically, then three letters carved on a stone that might spell a word from his book maybe isn't any kind of bullseye at all. And both the angel/hill story and the pirate/island story are directly related to treasure digging and buried gold. That's quite a coincidence, and a meaty offering to surrender on the alter when confronted with other potential coincidences.

100%

I've had a few conversations end when a point is brought up and I say "now apply that same logic to your claims about the church's truth via X,Y,Z."

If you want to play the coincidence games you can make anytihng true - the "Six degrees of Kevin Bacon" apologetic game works really well until you apply that same logic to the many problems that are much better documented within Joseph Smith's life.