Jaredite logistics

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Hagoth
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Jaredite logistics

Post by Hagoth » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:22 pm

The Book of Ether tells us the Jaredite barges were the “length of a tree.” The best lumber in the western Mediterranean came from the cedars of Lebanon, which grew to a maximum of about 80 feet. The length of many ancient vessels, like Viking longboats, was determined by the length of a pair of matching planks you could extract from a tree. Most cedars of Lebanon were bifurcated rather than a single long trunk like a spruce or fir, so you could probably expect to extract not more than a 50-foot plank from a prize tree. If “length of a tree” describes the length of a plank, it is safe to assume that a Jaredite barge wouldn’t have been much longer than 50 feet, which was an impressive vessel for the time, about half the length of Phoenician war ships that came along 1000 years later.

Now, a cow weighs 2000 pounds and eats 26 pounds of food/day and drinks at least 10 gallons (83 pounds) of water. So a cow plus it’s minimum survival requirement supplies for 344 days adds up to approximately 40,000 pounds. For one cow! A cow would produce about 25,000 pounds of manure in that time, by the way. Consider also the volume requirements:
-Food: 900 cubic feet
-Water: 600 cubic feet
-Cow: 40 cubic feet
-Volume needed to carry one cow = 1540 cubic feet

I’m not a mathematician, but my crude calculations give a generous volume of about 1700 cubic feet for an enclosed 50 foot by 10 foot vessel with ample headroom. That means a single cow would consume an entire vessel, with with no room for air, no humans to tend it, and no moving-about space. But let’s give the Jaredites the benefit of the doubt and double that volume so they can stuff 2 cattle and their fodder onto a single barge. Still no air to breathe or people to take care of them.

We don’t have a complete list of the animals that were loaded onto the barges, apart from tanks of fresh fish and honey bees, but we know that they gathered “flocks” of every kind and we know some of the animals Nephi discovered when he arrived. He mentions cattle AND cows, (two different animals), horses, sheep, goats and swine, all which were Old World domesticates. The elelphants, cureloms, and cumims had to have made their way to the Americas somehow post-flood, and since the Jaredites were reliant on them we should assume they brought them along too. Considering the cow problem described above, try to imagine how they would handle an elephant.

Since the Lord touched 16 stones for lighting – 2 per boat – we can assume there were people in every ship, but we aren’t told exactly how many. Mahonrimoriancumr was told to bring, “ thy families; and also Jared thy brother and his family; and also thy friends and their families, and the friends of Jared and their families. So let’s add those up:
-Thy families (plural): at least 2 families
-Jared’s family: 1
-Friends and their families (plural): at least 2 families
-Friends of Jared their families (plural): at least 2 families

So, at a very minimum that’s 7 families, assuming Jared and his brother only had two friends each. I’m going to add one more family so all 8 barges are manned and the magic lights don’t go to waste. How big is a family? Shall we be conservative and say 5 people, like a modern US family? So that’s 40 people at a bare minimum, but it would probably would have been many more.

An average person needs about 4 pounds of food and 6 pounds of water per day. For the full 344 day journey, that’s 3440 pounds x 40 people = a minimum of 138,000 pounds. Plus clothes, snacks and Travel Scrabble.

You can see where this is going. It quickly becomes a serious logistic nightmare, even for Yahweh.
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Phil Lurkerman
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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by Phil Lurkerman » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:58 pm

Next you will be suggesting that Noah didn't really have two of every animal on the ark. ;)

Seriously though, the Jaradite story is enough to completely invalidate the BoM.
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moksha
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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by moksha » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:21 pm

A clever apologist might say these Jaredite barges had the dimensional properties of a Gallifreyan TARDIS. That answer would of course be as accurate as any other LDS apologetic.
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Just This Guy
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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:03 am

I always imagines the barges to be more circular in shape. More barge-ish than boat. So that would provide much more interior volume. Manure can be shoveled out of the hatches. But you still quickly run into space limits when planning for a year long voyage with livestock. The hay alone for a horse or cow for a year would easily fill the available volume. Not to mention that it wouldn't last that long before it spoils. And that's not even getting into the physical and mental damage that would occur to such animals if they are not able to move and run for a long period of time.

The hatches in the top and bottom always struck me as both ingeniously clever and amazingly stupid at the same time.

You can open the top for air. If the top was sealed and the whole craft air tight, you could open the bottom and have free and highly convenient access to the ocean for waste dumping and fishing. If the craft gets overturned in a storm, you have the same setup as before. Of course, if both are open, you are dead.

Why would the lord have specifically tell the Jaredites that if the open one hatch and water comes in than to close it an open the other? Even basic common sense would say that the bottom will never have fresh air outside it. If it does, there are some serious violation of the laws of physics going on or they are badly run aground. While Gravity may not have been yet defined as a scientific concept at the time, it's application would have been well understood. Pickup a random object and drop it. The hatch in the direction your object falls will never be your fresh air hatch. Did God consider the people who were going on this journey that stupid that he had to spell it out in that amount of detail?

Also, if the barge was submerged due to weather or other circumstances, and they go to try to open the top hatch, you will have the weight of all the water above that hatch pushing it closed. Water weights A LOT. For example, if the hatch is circular in shape, 3 ft in diameter, and the barge is 5 feet below the surface, you have the force of over 4.4 TONS of water that you have to overcome to open the hatch. And if by some chance you were able to open it, you would have to over come the same 4+ tons of force to close the hatch. That's not even that easy to do with modern technology and engineering. If you were top open it while the craft was underwater, everyone is dead as the barge floods.

If a way, the engineering of this strikes me as another proof it is made up. This is they type of thing someone who is not overly educated in science and engineering comes up with. The concept does have some merit, but it falls apart in the real world application of it. It's like the kid who 'discovers' that you could run a car's internal combustion engine off the hydrogen and oxygen you get by electrolysis of water. You think you have an amazing idea that could change the world, but you don't realize that the idea is very limited by things like conservation of energy and will never work in real life. It's a good idea to people who don't understand what is going on. It may sell some books, but will never work in real life.

The Jaredite barges are the same thing. A good story, but fails basic engineering.
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2bizE
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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by 2bizE » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:43 am

The first real crack in my shelf was a similar logistics analysis with Noah’s ark. All the animals on Earth couldn't have fit in Noah’s barge for 40 days. Now think how hard it would be to last for a year on a small barge!
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wtfluff
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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by wtfluff » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:01 am

What about Magick?

:ugeek:
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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by jfro18 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:25 am

I remember when I first took the deep dive into church problems, I came across the CES Letter on Google and of course that has a ton of shelf-breaking issues.

But when the Letter For My Wife covered the Jaredite barges it became so clear that this was written by a 19th century person who just happened to be a storyteller.
How much water would 74+ people and animals need to survive for 344 days? Divided into 8 barges, that puts almost 10 people per barge. Humans need approx 1 gallon per person per day for consumption and sanitation (www.ready.gov /water). That’s about 3,440 gallons per barge. They also brought flocks and herds. There are a minimum of 3 animals to a flock or herd, assume 1 flock and 1 herd per barge. Sheep drink about 1 gallon of water per day and cows drink about 10 gallons. (www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/livestoc/as1763.pdf) They would drink about 1,032 and 10,320 gallons during the trip. That comes to a total of about 14,792 gallons. Just for comparison’s sake, here is a 15,000 gallon tank.

How would they store that much fresh water in a boat that was, at most, 75 feet long? Remember, this was supposed to be 2,500 – 2,200 B.C. and any tossing in the ocean would dump out any pottery, barrels, bowls or animal skinned bags used to contain the water. Any leaks would drown the passengers. That’s just water.
It then goes briefly into food storage and sanitation.

FWIW here is FAIR's response to the barge issue with food/water (https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Crit ... ossible.22:
Propadeutically we should establish that the ocean crossing took the Jaredites 344 days and the text gives us good indication that they stopped along the way. In Ether 6:8 it states that “The wind did never cease to blow towards the promised land while they were upon the waters”. That phrase can be interpreted to mean that they were continuously upon the water, but the interpretation with more explanatory power would be that they stopped occasionally since they made the journey in 344 days and the average is no more than two-four months for a crossing (more information below). The next question we would need to answer is which ocean the Jaredites used to arrive in the New World---the pacific or Atlantic. There are good arguments for both sides.
Here's an example of how they redefine both where the Book of Mormon took place along with assuming Joseph Smith wasn't just making it up when he gave the long timeframe of the trip:
While crossing the Pacific, it is possible that the Jaredites used “coasting” as a way of staying near land fall so that they could make any restock needed. It is now[23] known that ancient transoceanic crossers made just such a journey[24]. There are also several islands in the Pacific Ocean that could have been made for such a journey. The journey, if made continuously, would only be about 2-4 months. Thor Heyerdahl made the trip on raft from Morocco to the Caribbean in two months
You can read this rest if you want, the apparently they were able to take pit stops along the way to refuel and clean out. The phrase "with more explanatory power" is doing some heavy lifting here as they claim ideas that are nowhere in the text.

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Hagoth
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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by Hagoth » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:51 pm

I still maintain that the inspiration for the Jaredite barges was the Eerie Canal packet boats that rolled regularly through Palmyra. Joseph even went to great lengths to explain why his version didn't have windows like the one in this picture, which only makes the whole thing weaker, since even mentioning windows is an anachronism.

Image
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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by Yobispo » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:09 pm

The answer to all of this is something like "have faith" or "trust in the Lord" or "didn't you receive a witness of the book?" But a problem with faith-based answers is that the book goes into some design features, like the plug holes, no windows and the size. Why bother giving any detail at all if none of it matters anyway?

It's just more evidence that the most correct book was written by fallible humans trying to tell a good story and make a buck.

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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by alas » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:23 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:01 am
What about Magick?

:ugeek:
The barges were designed like Hermiony’s little clutch purse or the tent they all stayed in for the big quiddage match. They looked small on the outside but we’re huge inside. Y’all are thinking like muggles.

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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by wtfluff » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:54 pm

alas wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:23 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:01 am
What about Magick?

:ugeek:
The barges were designed like Hermiony’s little clutch purse or the tent they all stayed in for the big quiddage match. They looked small on the outside but we’re huge inside. Y’all are thinking like muggles.
Now we're talkin'!!!

Only Hermione's story is infinitely better than the Jaredite story. More believable too. :mrgreen:

That being said, my sarcastic question relates well to @Yobispo's reply: To make the Jaredite story work, you either have to believe in Magick, or you have to figure out a way to ignore logic, reason and evidence, and "just have faith" or "just believe." Mixing belief in Magick, and ignorance together works too.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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moksha
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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by moksha » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:05 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:01 am
What about Magick?
:ugeek:
I imagine each barge had an ample supply of seer stones for propulsion, gyroscopic stability, and water filtration.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by Mormorrisey » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:07 am

Yobispo wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:09 pm
The answer to all of this is something like "have faith" or "trust in the Lord" or "didn't you receive a witness of the book?" But a problem with faith-based answers is that the book goes into some design features, like the plug holes, no windows and the size. Why bother giving any detail at all if none of it matters anyway?
Yobispo's right, everybody. These are just secondary questions, it's the PRIMARY questions that are more important. Back to church!

(How do you like that "Corbridge Maneuver," Yobispo? I'm sure you have some choice words for me right now. :lol:)
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Hagoth
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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by Hagoth » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:13 am

Great observations, Just This Guy
Just This Guy wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:03 am
I always imagines the barges to be more circular in shape.
The mention of the word dish kind of gives me that impression at first but it specifies that "the ends thereof were peaked."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Hagoth
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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by Hagoth » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:22 am

jfro18 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:25 am
You can read this rest if you want, the apparently they were able to take pit stops along the way to refuel and clean out. The phrase "with more explanatory power" is doing some heavy lifting here as they claim ideas that are nowhere in the text.
There are sooooo many places to stop and restock in the mid-Pacific (or Atlantic for that matter):
Image

Despite the "explanatory power" of such a claim, it simply is not what the text says. I don't know how they can contort “The wind did never cease to blow towards the promised land while they were upon the waters” into "but they stopped frequently for food and water." Also, the comparison they are making is to ships with sails and rudders that were following a well-planned course; pretty much the opposite of what Ether describes.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by Hagoth » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:25 am

wtfluff wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:54 pm
alas wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:23 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:01 am
What about Magick?

:ugeek:
The barges were designed like Hermiony’s little clutch purse or the tent they all stayed in for the big quiddage match. They looked small on the outside but we’re huge inside. Y’all are thinking like muggles.
Now we're talkin'!!!

Only Hermione's story is infinitely better than the Jaredite story. More believable too. :mrgreen:

That being said, my sarcastic question relates well to @Yobispo's reply: To make the Jaredite story work, you either have to believe in Magick, or you have to figure out a way to ignore logic, reason and evidence, and "just have faith" or "just believe." Mixing belief in Magick, and ignorance together works too.
One response I have heard is that God put all of the animals and people into suspended animation so they didn't need food and water. My response was, well as long as he was using magic, why did he need boats in the first place, why didn't he just teleport them like he did Peter James and John when they ordained Joseph?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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græy
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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by græy » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:23 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:25 am
One response I have heard is that God put all of the animals and people into suspended animation so they didn't need food and water. My response was, well as long as he was using magic, why did he need boats in the first place, why didn't he just teleport them like he did Peter James and John when they ordained Joseph?
It always comes back to the trickster god.

"I'm going to make you do most of the work, but I'll use magic for what you can't do. But not too much magic, 'cause I can't make it too easy or obvious. Then, we won't record any important details of what actually happened just so that people have to choose faith in face of reason (read: delusion) or doubt, which will be used against them on judgement day. Mwa-ha-ha-ah-ah-ha-ha!"

Oh that trickster god. He's a character. Always keeping things interesting!
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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by Corsair » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:03 pm

It has long amused me that the LDS church and FairMormon have spent endless talking and writing about weaker and weaker explanations that always end in "god doing some magic" to fix the problems. If Joseph Smith had simply had them cross in a regular boat then windows, and "holes in the top and bottom", and "tight like unto a dish" would have been completely unnecessary. The story still has loads of holes in it, but not nearly as many as would have erupted in a wooden submarine.

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Yobispo
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Re: Jaredite logistics

Post by Yobispo » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:49 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:07 am
Yobispo wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:09 pm
The answer to all of this is something like "have faith" or "trust in the Lord" or "didn't you receive a witness of the book?" But a problem with faith-based answers is that the book goes into some design features, like the plug holes, no windows and the size. Why bother giving any detail at all if none of it matters anyway?
Yobispo's right, everybody. These are just secondary questions, it's the PRIMARY questions that are more important. Back to church!

(How do you like that "Corbridge Maneuver," Yobispo? I'm sure you have some choice words for me right now. :lol:)
You no good, dirty rotten.... Kidding of course. This stuff will make you crazy!!

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