What if?

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 1367
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

What if?

Post by deacon blues » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:19 pm

I like to throw out speculations from time to time, so here goes: What if today Pres. Nelson said “We have always guided the Church to the best of our ability but we now wish to confess we do not claim any special relationship to or guidance from God?” We think that experience shows the best way to conduct your life is the covenant path, but we no longer claim it is the only way to salvation.

1. How would this affect your relationship to the Church?

2. How do you think this would affect the Church?
God is Love. God is Truth

User avatar
Linked
Posts: 1127
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: What if?

Post by Linked » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:42 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:19 pm
1. How would this affect your relationship to the Church?
I would continue to not attend and enjoy being judged every so slightly less about my non-belief.
deacon blues wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:19 pm
2. How do you think this would affect the Church?
The church is built on being capital T True. So whatever was left would be a very different church.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
Five
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:13 am
Location: The Aaronic Priesthood Restoration Country

Re: What if?

Post by Five » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:22 pm

Lawsuits. No doubt, such an admission would open them up to that billion dollar tithing stash and whatever stipends the GAs have been getting over the years, being awarded to the millions of members who have been defrauded. I would seek out whoever was handling the massive amount of lawsuits and jump upon the train with others.

Which is why you will never see them admit that.

It might revert to something that resembles Scientology except with an occult and Christian flair to it. It already kinda does with the borderline science fiction and planets flavor to "heaven".

User avatar
Red Ryder
Posts: 2884
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: What if?

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:39 pm

1. I still don’t want to participate.

2. Members and the Q14 would think President Nelson was incapacitated, lost his mind, and would be bound to a wheelchair and muzzle while the auto-pen transfers power of the corporate sole over to Oaks.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 4846
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: What if?

Post by Hagoth » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:06 pm

Is this before or after hell freezes over?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: What if?

Post by moksha » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:52 pm

I think there would be a half dozen Mormon guys claiming to be the new prophet before the end of the month.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
SaidNobody
Posts: 218
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:03 am

Re: What if?

Post by SaidNobody » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:22 am

moksha wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:52 pm
I think there would be a half dozen Mormon guys claiming to be the new prophet before the end of the month.
I support this theory 100%. In the 1880s, John Taylor was under a lot of pressure to dump the polygamy doctrine. He refused, and he died in hiding. Wilford Woodruff did dump it. John Taylor saw this coming and set aside a group of men to "keep the principle alive" and gave them the high priesthood to do it with.

Thoughts are far more powerful than the mere mortals that carry them. Some stories seem to live in the very air, such as the "son of God" story. How many times throughout history does it show up?

If the President of the Church did such a thing, (and it has been done in the past) there would an exodus of people to find the true church, because well, people want the "true church" and not something so fallible as "we're just faking it." However, I don't think a President has so much power as to cause most people to simply not believe.

We often join (or stay in) churches because the ideas resonant with us. The prophet doesn't give the ideas power so much as our resonance with the ideas. So, some might be triggered to question everything, but many would probably just find another way to worship.

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 4846
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: What if?

Post by Hagoth » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:06 am

It would be a good day for Denver Snuffer.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
wtfluff
Posts: 2823
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: Worshiping Gravity / Pulling Taffy

Re: What if?

Post by wtfluff » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:52 am

Can I get a refund on tithes and offerings if this happens?

Does COJCOL-d$-Inc. start paying taxes on it's piles of gold and real-estate if this happens?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: What if?

Post by moksha » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:09 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:52 am
Can I get a refund on tithes and offerings if this happens?
One of the Unwritten Rules is that all sales are final.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
2bizE
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: What if?

Post by 2bizE » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:29 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:39 pm
1. I still don’t want to participate.

2. Members and the Q14 would think President Nelson was incapacitated, lost his mind, and would be bound to a wheelchair and muzzle while the auto-pen transfers power of the corporate sole over to Oaks.
Yep. Both the auto-pen and the little penlight and pad of paper.
~2bizE

User avatar
blazerb
Posts: 924
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:35 pm

Re: What if?

Post by blazerb » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:42 am

I would stay on my slow-fade path out of the church, but I would have a little more respect for RMN and any of the leadership that echoes his sentiments. I would look for more action to give real help to society as a whole with the resources the church has amassed.

I think a lot of members would be left very nervous. What do you do when you have spent your life doing what God instructs as dictated by a prophet and then find out that the prophet is no more connected to God than you? There would be a lot of faith transitions. I would be that most active members would stay active as much from inertia as anything else, but probably the nature of their faith would shift. I agree that there would be many claiming to be "the one mighty and strong," but I don't think any of them would get much of a following.

User avatar
Lucidity
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:08 pm

Re: What if?

Post by Lucidity » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:25 am

Ha! Wow it says a lot that this is one of the least likely most outlandish concepts of a post I’ve come across in sometime.
My life would experience essentially no change. I would get a good laugh out of it and definitely be curious of how my Mormon family and friends would react but it would just be entertainment for me. (Insert Michael Jackson eating popcorn gif)

But I agree that there would be plenty of people saying the church leadership was in apostasy and no shortage of leaders freshly called “Prophets” coming out of the woodwork.

Reuben
Posts: 1312
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: What if?

Post by Reuben » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:03 am

First, I'm not sure whether I would want to wake up.

But if it's not a dream, here are my answers, in reverse order.

2. How do you think this would affect the Church?

Faith crises. Major splintering. Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria! The Q15 maintain authority not just because the members give it to them - they also take it by psychological force. What if they didn't have that force anymore? It would leave millions of identities ungrounded and a huge power vacuum.

IMO this kind of thing could happen safely in a couple of generations, if the leaders slowly relinquish their hold on members' minds and slowly pivot to keeping them primarily by persuasion. Is it happening already? Maybe, a bit.

1. How would this affect your relationship to the Church?

It depends on whether Nelson's declaration tells me anything about whether the church is emerging from its collective narcissism, which is the only thing that would cause me to reevaluate my relationship with it.

It could have overall a negative effect, if the aforementioned faith crises, splintering, and mass hysteria within my own family were bad enough. Variants of "those f***ing idiots" might cross my mind often.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

User avatar
oliblish
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:09 pm

Re: What if?

Post by oliblish » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:32 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:52 am
Can I get a refund on tithes and offerings if this happens?

Does COJCOL-d$-Inc. start paying taxes on it's piles of gold and real-estate if this happens?
No

No
Stands next to Kolob, called by the Egyptians Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation near to the celestial or the place where God resides; holding the key of power also, pertaining to other planets; as revealed from God to Abraham

User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 1367
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Re: What if?

Post by deacon blues » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:43 pm

Lucidity wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:25 am
Ha! Wow it says a lot that this is one of the least likely most outlandish concepts of a post I’ve come across in sometime.
My life would experience essentially no change. I would get a good laugh out of it and definitely be curious of how my Mormon family and friends would react but it would just be entertainment for me. (Insert Michael Jackson eating popcorn gif)

But I agree that there would be plenty of people saying the church leadership was in apostasy and no shortage of leaders freshly called “Prophets” coming out of the woodwork.
It's a kind of coming out from behind the curtain "Wizard of Oz" storyline. I think at some level (consciously or unconsciously) many general authorities may have played out this scenario in their minds and come to the same conclusion, that the Church would fall apart. That's probably the origin of the "doubt your doubts" meme: some GA thinking about reality, but deciding that the Church breaking in pieces like the RLDS/CofC would be unimaginable. Conversely, I still play the "What if it was true?" story out in my mind once in a while (part of being honest is entertaining doubts), but of course the puzzle pieces will never all fit together. :shock:
God is Love. God is Truth

User avatar
wtfluff
Posts: 2823
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: Worshiping Gravity / Pulling Taffy

Re: What if?

Post by wtfluff » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:23 pm

oliblish wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:32 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:52 am
Can I get a refund on tithes and offerings if this happens?

Does COJCOL-d$-Inc. start paying taxes on it's piles of gold and real-estate if this happens?
No

No
Not messing around are you Egyptian One? Harsh! Very harsh!

And in the case of these harsh answers to my two questions, here are my answers to the OP questions:

1: It doesn't matter, I want my money back! (Uttered in the voice of a screaming child. :cry: )

2: It doesn't matter, TCOJCOL-dS™ needs to PAY TAXES as if it were a giant, multi-billion dollar real-estate corporation. (Wait... Other giant real-estate corporation probably pay next-to-nothing in taxes because they know all the loopholes... Maybe I need to re-think this one. :lol: )
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

User avatar
Lucidity
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:08 pm

Re: What if?

Post by Lucidity » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:48 am

deacon blues wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:43 pm
Lucidity wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:25 am
Ha! Wow it says a lot that this is one of the least likely most outlandish concepts of a post I’ve come across in sometime.
My life would experience essentially no change. I would get a good laugh out of it and definitely be curious of how my Mormon family and friends would react but it would just be entertainment for me. (Insert Michael Jackson eating popcorn gif)

But I agree that there would be plenty of people saying the church leadership was in apostasy and no shortage of leaders freshly called “Prophets” coming out of the woodwork.
It's a kind of coming out from behind the curtain "Wizard of Oz" storyline. I think at some level (consciously or unconsciously) many general authorities may have played out this scenario in their minds and come to the same conclusion, that the Church would fall apart. That's probably the origin of the "doubt your doubts" meme: some GA thinking about reality, but deciding that the Church breaking in pieces like the RLDS/CofC would be unimaginable. Conversely, I still play the "What if it was true?" story out in my mind once in a while (part of being honest is entertaining doubts), but of course the puzzle pieces will never all fit together. :shock:

I agree, it’s fun and interesting to imagine how these various scenarios would play out. I guess since I believe the G15 believe themselves to be divinely called and legitimately inspired I don’t really entertain these ideas much.

But I do think think something like a Raymond Franz situation that occurred in the Jehovah’s Witnesses is possible, if unlikely, and would be fascinating to watch unfold in the age of the internet.

User avatar
Five
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:13 am
Location: The Aaronic Priesthood Restoration Country

Re: What if?

Post by Five » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:08 am

I took this question to mean, "what if the brethren were united behind Nelson" in making such a pronouncement. Like, as in, what if that was the official position of the church. So, I answered based on that. I do believe there would be lawsuits because an admission like that would essentially be fraud; people paid tithing out of belief in something that is now being admitted as a lie. I don't think that legally you can do that.

However, if it was just Nelson saying that on his own and the GA's were not on board or later changed their minds due to backlash, I agree with others that it'd simply be "Time for a new prophet". Either someone from among the GAs taking the slot, all "business as usual" or someone else stepping up and being able to persuade people that they were truly the next one.

Unless it was unified, an official change in direction put out by the whole Presidency, then they could simply pin it on "silly Nelson getting old."

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 2953
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: What if?

Post by Corsair » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:37 am

Let me offer one contrary, yet boring option where the members kind of shrug and just go with it. Losing the doctrine of insular exclusivity would probably be a net negative where many of their liberal supporters drop from activity, but cultural inertia might simply keep the bulk of believers in the faith. The missionary lessons would need some tweaking and a new understanding of Joseph Smith would be needed. The church makes another firm step towards being fully Protestant.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests