An Old White Man Discusses Racism

[Red Ryder]

Yep. It was one of the main two ingredients in mine. I could have put one huge issue on the back burner if I had been able to trust church leaders that it would all work out... but I couldn't trust them.

What was the other one?

[Yobispo]

He may have been talking about racism, but he was really talking about obedience to the PSR's, as always. He can never mention the old stance without reminding members just how wrong they were before. And if they were wrong before (including all of the current leaders who were adults in 1978) then what are they wrong about now??? That's the #1 thought which he needs to point his audience away from. So if he can sound like he is even remotely current with his best apologetics mixed into the talk, great, but mostly he is just reinforcing that the current leadership are totally inspired and you don't need to hurt your soft little brains by using them independently.

Slightly more political, Oaks clearly isn't worried about insulting the DezNat crowd by uttering the words "black lives matter". Also, I've spent most of my life on the conservative side and I'm very tired of the assumption that conservatives are racist, bigots, etc. No group is all this or all that.

[Reuben]

Yep. It was one of the main two ingredients in mine. I could have put one huge issue on the back burner if I had been able to trust church leaders that it would all work out... but I couldn't trust them.

What was the other one?

Complete lack of divine intervention when I needed it most.

[Apologeticsislying]

Yep. It was one of the main two ingredients in mine. I could have put one huge issue on the back burner if I had been able to trust church leaders that it would all work out... but I couldn't trust them.

What was the other one?

Complete lack of divine intervention when I needed it most.

THIS

[Hagoth]

Complete lack of divine intervention when I needed it most.

TBM response:
Oh sure, blame it on God. Is your pride making you overlook the REAL reason? You obviously weren't worthy, or not sincere, or not patient enough to know that it would happen in God's time, or too stiff-necked to see that it had already happened but you weren't in tune enough to receive it.

Pick one.

[wtfluff]

Yep. It was one of the main two ingredients in mine. I could have put one huge issue on the back burner if I had been able to trust church leaders that it would all work out... but I couldn't trust them.

What was the other one?

Complete lack of divine intervention when I needed it most.

Your sentence about divine intervention keeps crossing my fluffy mind Rueben.

I like to say one of my main reasons for ditching LD$-Inc. is because "It just doesn't work," or "It can't live up to any of it's grand and wonderful promises."

I think "Lack of Divine Intervention" might be a better way to state what I mentioned in the previous sentence, so I will be plagiarizing your statement, though I think I'll re-word it slightly: "Complete Lack of Divine Intervention, EVER."

[Red Ryder]

Your sentence about divine intervention keeps crossing my fluffy mind Rueben.

I like to say one of my main reasons for ditching LD$-Inc. is because "It just doesn't work," or "It can't live up to any of it's grand and wonderful promises."

I think "Lack of Divine Intervention" might be a better way to state what I mentioned in the previous sentence, so I will be plagiarizing your statement, though I think I'll re-word it slightly: "Complete Lack of Divine Intervention, EVER."

Mormonism, The Twinkie of Religion!

Ya’ll have me thinking about this divine intervention stuff. I never expected divine intervention. I expected myself to pray to HF then get up off my knees and go work and solve my problems on my own. You know “faith without works is dead...”

Hmmm. I guess I didn’t rely on God enough but it sounds like those that did we’re also disappointed.

Seems God tends to only exist in our own heads while our religious leaders feed us a narrative to keep those thoughts going. No wonder testimony, temple worship, and polyester underwear are an important thing! It feeds the narrative and keeps the God script inside our heads going.

When something good happens we praise him. When something bad happens we beat ourselves up. Mentally, emotionally, and spiritually until something good happens and God shows up. Then we praise him!

The God Cycle, where even hamsters are impressed!

What an epiphany today... sigh.

[Apologeticsislying]

Complete lack of divine intervention when I needed it most.

TBM response:
Oh sure, blame it on God. Is your pride making you overlook the REAL reason? You obviously weren't worthy, or not sincere, or not patient enough to know that it would happen in God's time, or too stiff-necked to see that it had already happened but you weren't in tune enough to receive it.

Pick one.

I remember using this canard myself...

[Hagoth]

I expected myself to pray to HF then get up off my knees and go work and solve my problems on my own.

I still think that is the best approach to prayer, whether you are a full-steam-ahead believer or a hopeful doubter The value of prayer, like meditation, is to help you develop your capacity to deal with whatever the universe throws at you. If you think it's a Bat Signal you are destined to be disappointed. Or else you will develop your bias confirmation skills to superhuman levels.

[wtfluff]

Ya’ll have me thinking about this divine intervention stuff. I never expected divine intervention. I expected myself to pray to HF then get up off my knees and go work and solve my problems on my own. You know “faith without works is dead...”

I'm trying to wrap my fluffy brain around this: Praying to HF, but not expecting any sort of intervention from HF? Why pray to HF at all then?

[Apologeticsislying]

Ya’ll have me thinking about this divine intervention stuff. I never expected divine intervention. I expected myself to pray to HF then get up off my knees and go work and solve my problems on my own. You know “faith without works is dead...”

I'm trying to wrap my fluffy brain around this: Praying to HF, but not expecting any sort of intervention from HF? Why pray to HF at all then?

Exactly/ God does nothing anyway, why go through the middle man? We need to work on it ourselves.

[Five]

I debated making an entirely different topic. I have been quietly troubled by this discussion ever since I first learned of the ban on the Priesthood during my shelf break back in August. Because I had no idea, not even a little inkling until I read the Gospel Topics Essay and then the CES letter.

....but I did know and accept the Lamanite skin curse when I was a TBM. Now, knowing none of it was real, I find myself going back and reexamining myself and my thoughts. I was a Navy brat for my younger years, living on diverse Naval bases and housing just as much as we lived in non-U.S. neighborhoods. So, I don't think I grew up thinking or treating those of other races differently. In my adult TBM-ness, I compartmentalized it by thinking, "That was just the Lamanites at the time" and not firmly equating black skin=wicked. After all, if it did at one time, long long ago, that was no longer true now. Like etymology of words and phrases, we're no longer talking about the thing they were back then but referring to modern things now.

I did grow up very conservative, though. That Protestant, "You get what you earn, just work hard" mindset but I don't think it was skin based. Possibly ignorantly class based. In the last two to three years I've started leaning more Left, becoming more sensitive to social issues as I went inactive from the church. Now that I'm fully out(at least mentally, not physically) and have uncovered all of this history stuff... I cannot fathom being a part of this organization that had this racist belief system inherent from the beginning and not be affected by it in some way. I don't know, it's just one of those Boogeymen that I haven't yet found lurking within me but might come up at some random time when confronting issues.

Did any of you guys find racist mindsets/perceptions that had to be dismantled when your shelf broke? Or did you always put race stuff on the shelf and it caused the weight of it to collapse?

[moksha]

I walked away from the Church when I was 17 and the Church's racial policy was one of the top items on my "opposed to" list. Years later the Church rescinded its racial apartheid policy, and years after that I returned to the Church. The Church has always had well-meaning people, but frequently their voices are not heard. President Nelson has made some very adroit and healing remarks regard institutional racism lately. I feel good about that.

I remember a couple of long discussions with Dr. Lowell Bennion years ago. He told me that eventually, the Church would change its racial policy and he was right. The inexorable march of history to do better can move even the Church.

[alas]

Ya’ll have me thinking about this divine intervention stuff. I never expected divine intervention. I expected myself to pray to HF then get up off my knees and go work and solve my problems on my own. You know “faith without works is dead...”

I'm trying to wrap my fluffy brain around this: Praying to HF, but not expecting any sort of intervention from HF? Why pray to HF at all then?

Exactly/ God does nothing anyway, why go through the middle man? We need to work on it ourselves.

As a person who still believes in some concept of God, I don’t expect God to *do* anything. But I pray anyway. But prayer is sort of like seeing a mental health person. They listen, nod, tell you what they just heard you say, nod and listen some more. And somehow, if the counselor is good, (and God is) you come out knowing more about yourself and the situation, not that the counselor told you anything you didn’t know, but that the talking about it helps you understand your situation. I don’t expect God or a counselor to fix anything in my life. I have to do that. But I expect God to help me find love and patience inside myself. I expect God to help me find courage inside myself. He doesn’t “give” me courage. I still have to find it inside myself.

My mother once told me about her experience of “God didn’t do a damn thing to help.” And when she was finished with her bitter story of wanting God to fix her life instead of God showing her how SHE needed to fix her life, I said, but He did solve the problem by showing you exactly who was screwing up your life. But she felt so betrayed by SEEING that her husband was actually purposely screwing up her life, that she refused to deal with knowing that. The fact that you couldn’t find the courage to leave him wasn’t God’s fault. She still couldn’t accept that God wasn’t going to make her husband be the husband she needed, but that she would be happier without him. Nope, she was so set on God fixing things, that she couldn’t accept the hard answers God showed her. All it would have taken was for her to stand up to her husband and his gaslighting, and maybe get beaten up for standing up to him, or to divorce him and support her kids on what she could make back in the 50s. She couldn’t face the answer she had prayed for, so she decided God didn’t exist. The fact that she hated her options doesn’t mean God doesnt exist or doesn’t “help”. He just helps like talking to your mom on the phone helps. She can’t do anything except clarify the problem or encourage you or just love you while you cry. (Normal moms, not mine) Me, I accept that God isn’t going to, or can’t, do anything except listen or love me while I cry. That has to be enough. I have to find the courage and strength for that to be enough, cause God isn’t going violate whatever laws of the universe to fix my life for me. It is called adulting. And God expects us to adult.

Most people want God to be Santa clause, only dressed in white instead of red, and maybe not fat. But it is still all about him giving them what they want. What God actually gives you is a swift kick in the behind as He tells you to roll up your sleeves and get your a** in gear. But most people don’t want that kind of God. I rather like Him. Didn’t always like him, but now that I don’t expect Santa, I rather appreciate a kick in the rear when needed. Well....after it stops hurting.

[Red Ryder]

Ya’ll have me thinking about this divine intervention stuff. I never expected divine intervention. I expected myself to pray to HF then get up off my knees and go work and solve my problems on my own. You know “faith without works is dead...”

I'm trying to wrap my fluffy brain around this: Praying to HF, but not expecting any sort of intervention from HF? Why pray to HF at all then?

Because we were TOLD to!

I was a checklist Mormon:

Pray
Read scriptures
Attend church
Pay tithes
Go on a mission
Don’t masturb ....

I did all of these things because I was told to. Well almost all.

[wtfluff]

Ya’ll have me thinking about this divine intervention stuff. I never expected divine intervention. I expected myself to pray to HF then get up off my knees and go work and solve my problems on my own. You know “faith without works is dead...”

I'm trying to wrap my fluffy brain around this: Praying to HF, but not expecting any sort of intervention from HF? Why pray to HF at all then?

Because we were TOLD to!

I was a checklist Mormon:

Pray
Read scriptures
Attend church
Pay tithes
Go on a mission
Don’t masturb ....

I did all of these things because I was told to. Well almost all.

I understand the "checklist" part of prayer, that was definitely part of the mix for me, and I also understand the faith without works/adulting part of it. BUTT... The whole "Elohim near Kolob loves you, and he hears and answers your prayers" got drilled into my fluffy brain ad infinitum from the instant of my first breath, and I believed it. So, doesn't "answering your prayers" include some kind of divine intervention? Even if it was just something rote like "Bless Donald tRump not to be such a dipsh!t," I did expect Elohim to help he dipsh!t out somehow. And there were definitely times when I literally begged and pleaded with the invisible, absentee guy in they sky to fulfill his side of the "promises" he supposedly gave me in my MORmON palm-reading... I mean my patriarchal "blessing." I mean, he literally told me those things would happen in "my own personal scripture" if I was righteous enough. Even if it was just dropping some tiny hint in my brain via his side-kick ghost to help me fulfill those promises, I expected some sort of "intervention." (Yeah, it took me way too long to realize that being "righteous enough" wasn't humanly possible.)

Granted, toward "the end" when I was still doing all I could to force myself to make LDS-Inc. work, and it wasn't working; I gave up on prayer because I didn't see any benefit. I also gave up on some of the other "checklist" items for the same reason.

But it's still mind-blowing for me to think of a "believer" participating in the prayer ritual/checklist-item, and not expecting any sort of divine intervention.

[Red Ryder]

Perhaps I learned at a really young age that prayers were pointless after my grandpa died. We all prayed he would not die but he still did.

I just didn’t put the rest of the puzzle together until age 30 when I stumbled into the rabbit hole.

Alas, your post highlights the problem with answered prayers. They’re not always a real answer and if they are they’re dependent on the person interpreting the answer. It’s all subjective when the fallback answer is the safety net of “God’s will”.

[Red Ryder]

I did grow up very conservative, though. That Protestant, "You get what you earn, just work hard" mindset but I don't think it was skin based. Possibly ignorantly class based. In the last two to three years I've started leaning more Left, becoming more sensitive to social issues as I went inactive from the church. Now that I'm fully out(at least mentally, not physically) and have uncovered all of this history stuff... I cannot fathom being a part of this organization that had this racist belief system inherent from the beginning and not be affected by it in some way. I don't know, it's just one of those Boogeymen that I haven't yet found lurking within me but might come up at some random time when confronting issues.

Did any of you guys find racist mindsets/perceptions that had to be dismantled when your shelf broke? Or did you always put race stuff on the shelf and it caused the weight of it to collapse?

Yes. The more I dismantled my narrow mindset the bigger and more beautiful the world became. Strange huh? I’d guess that you’re going through the same process now as you admitted leaning more left.

Opening your mind is an amazing journey!

By the way, welcome to NOM Five.

[alas]

Perhaps I learned at a really young age that prayers were pointless after my grandpa died. We all prayed he would not die but he still did.

I just didn’t put the rest of the puzzle together until age 30 when I stumbled into the rabbit hole.

Alas, your post highlights the problem with answered prayers. They’re not always a real answer and if they are they’re dependent on the person interpreting the answer. It’s all subjective when the fallback answer is the safety net of “God’s will”.

RR, I personally don’t think of God as having a will. I guess I am far enough away from a Mormon anthromorphised concept of God that I no longer think of God as wanting stuff. God is more like gravity. Gravity doesn’t will or want you to fall down. Gravity couldn’t care less if you fall down or stay up. But it operates by rules. When you understand those rules you can use them to your advantage. But when you don’t understand and stupidly violate the rules, then shit happens. To back to the mental health counselor example. When I was working with clients, I kept anything I might want out of it. What I wanted should be totally irrelevant. And the better I did at keeping my own will out of it, the better for my client. Take a battered woman. She has some rotten options. Option (a) stinks, while option (b) just sucks, and option (c) is totally unrealistic, while option(d) is supper hard. Her parents will be broken hearted at option (e), and so on. There are no good options or she would have fixed her situation by now. So, since she is the one who knows the situation best, and she is the one who has to live with the consequences, she is the only one to decide. And while I may think that in the situation, I would get away from the abuser, I am not the one who loves him, knows his good side, and has to live with the decision. I am not the one who would have to support children or allow those children to visit the abuser. I am not the one who feel the pain of a beating, or the pain of loneliness. What I want really doesn’t matter. But I help her see the situation by asking questions, reflecting back to her the things she says, maybe teaching her, but never leading her towards one solution or another. Once she makes her choice, I might help her find the courage inside of herself to go about doing it.

And of course it is subjective. God is something we carry inside of ourselves as in we are one with God.

What Good is such a God? I am not sure, but then I was never sure I was “helping” my clients either, so funny that they were so grateful and gave me so much credit for getting out or staying with an abusive husband. They gave me so much credit for helping and yet they did all the work while I just watched and cheered them on. So, was the help I gave “real”?

I didn’t give them an answer. They found their own answer. I didn’t change the situation they were in. I didn’t step in and change their husband. I did the same kind of nothing you say God does, when we pray and still have to figure out our own answers.

Sure there were clients who tried to demand I tell them the answer and I had to kindly explain once again that was not my job and if I tried doing that, they would end up hating me. Some of them didn’t come back when they found they still had to do all the hard work. And I am sure they went off and said professional counseling doesn’t do any good. But did I fail them, or did they have expectations of me being able to change their husband against his will? Did I fail or did they have unrealistic expectations?

The church teaches us to believe in Santa-God. It teaches a prosperity gospel. It teaches that God answers prayers by changing reality, or causing someone else to act the way we want them to act. Like on your mission how you were taught that you living righteously could make an investigator believe. It just doesn’t work that way and the church lies. Just like trump has gone off the deep end with his “power of positive thinking” religion and now thinks that his thinking something makes it real, our church went off the deep end teaching about a God who heals the sick, and well, you know all that and it is as false as Trump thinking that if he believes he won the election, that the power of positive thinking will change reality.

Mormon God doesn’t exist. But maybe something else does.