An Old White Man Discusses Racism

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Mormorrisey
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An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:09 pm

So Dallin H Oaks gave the devotional at BYU today, and apart from encouraging the students to wear masks and actually using the phrase, Black Lives Matter (with a few provisos, of course) it wasn't a great talk. As one of my kids said about it after watching some of it, "it was a talk for white people to feel better about themselves." Yep, pretty much.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... -2020-talk

As a historian, this one really bothers me for some reason, that he, like Boyd K before him, simply want to erase parts of history they don't like, and pretend it doesn't exist. Oaks very predictably decries tearing down statues of slave owners, and those nasty historians who bring up problems:

"We share our history and enjoy the advantages of our constitutional government and the prosperity of this nation. The predecessors of many Americans of different backgrounds made great sacrifices to establish this nation. Whatever those sacrifices—of freedom, property, or even life—let us now honor them for what they have done for us and forgo quarrelling over the past. Ours is the duty to unite and improve the future we will share."

So just forget all that problematic history, and pretend we believe in an America that never really existed. And not just America, but the church; for God's sake, stop bringing up the priesthood ban:

"Some have rejected some element of God’s plan as unreasonable according to cultural norms they could understand or accept. Others, who have accepted God’s plan, have mistakenly relied on cultural norms to provide reasons God has not revealed. Thus, both non-believers and believers can reject or attempt to amend divine plans by relying on cultural norms instead of the directions of God. The safest course is not to reject or supplement the divine plan by human reasoning."

So stop trying to figure out if the priesthood ban was actually racist, it just doesn't matter. You can't figure out why God would tell a bunch of old white dudes that black people don't deserve the priesthood or the saving ordinances of the temple, so stop trying to use your brains to figure it out. The anti-intellectualism of Oaks just marches on. What utter, utter nonsense he's spewing these days.
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Apologeticsislying
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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by Apologeticsislying » Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:46 pm

Mormorrisey on Oaks
What utter, utter nonsense he's spewing these days.
I see, upon seeing other's reactions to the old white duffers in Utah comments on anything they ever talk about, that my having a faith crisis, as the church wades through its truth crisis, has been an astonishing blessing of saving me boat loads of time from ever even listening to them, let alone reading of their inanities!
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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moksha
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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by moksha » Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:11 pm

In talking about those who continue in their racism, I assume Oaks is centering upon Trump Republicans, LDS apologists, and LDS fundamentalists.

Even if Oaks wishes to ignore the long history of LDS racism, I think his current message of ending racism is a very good one.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Mormorrisey
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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:34 pm

moksha wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:11 pm
In talking about those who continue in their racism, I assume Oaks is centering upon Trump Republicans, LDS apologists, and LDS fundamentalists.

Even if Oaks wishes to ignore the long history of LDS racism, I think his current message of ending racism is a very good one.
And I don't think you're wrong. At least they are talking about it, but it's the way they're talking about it that's a challenge to me. At some point they're going to have to acknowledge their institutional racism, maybe even (gasp!) apologize for it, and then maybe they can convince their very conservative base that's its a problem. It's going to be problematic if they are always blaming the base; my God, their racism has deep roots in the church itself. Acknowledge it at the very least.

The best line on Oaks' talk came from some random person on reddit. "So Oaks says Black Lives Matter. And apparently white statues matter too."
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by Reuben » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:22 pm

moksha wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:11 pm
In talking about those who continue in their racism, I assume Oaks is centering upon Trump Republicans, LDS apologists, and LDS fundamentalists.
That's my wife you're talking about there, dear penguin. She's not racist, she's afraid of revolution and socialism, just like millions of other Republicans.

I'm tired of polarized bullshit like this getting a pass just because it trashes the American right. I'm not going to ignore it anymore, because it's been getting worse. Please stop.

And if you can spare 15 seconds, please read my goddamn signature.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by wtfluff » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:28 pm

An Old completely out-of-touch White Man, Gaslighting Racism... And the next CEO of The Corporation of the COJCOL-dS™.

I do actually have quite a bit of trepidation about the collateral damage that he might cause when he assumes the crown. :cry:
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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by alas » Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:20 am

Reuben wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:22 pm
moksha wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:11 pm
In talking about those who continue in their racism, I assume Oaks is centering upon Trump Republicans, LDS apologists, and LDS fundamentalists.
That's my wife you're talking about there, dear penguin. She's not racist, she's afraid of revolution and socialism, just like millions of other Republicans.

I'm tired of polarized bullshit like this getting a pass just because it trashes the American right. I'm not going to ignore it anymore, because it's been getting worse. Please stop.

And if you can spare 15 seconds, please read my goddamn signature.
I think most of us know that some people support trump for reasons other than racism. Some are single issue voters who vote republican hoping to load the SC with enough conservatives to outlaw all abortion. Some don’t understand that socialism is not fascism. So, while not all Trump supporters are racist, enough of them are that Oaks could have been addressing them. And Trump has certainly added to the more recent open racism. Some of us see trump encouraging more racism with some of his remarks and basically fueling the hatred and we want him out of office before he starts the racial war that some of the racists are hoping for.

So, how do you want us to talk about the Trump supporters who are racist? Always say that not all Trump supporters are racist. Enough of them are that it is a problem. How do we address a real problem?

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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by Hagoth » Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:22 am

Reuben wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:22 pm
That's my wife you're talking about there, dear penguin. She's not racist, she's afraid of revolution and socialism, just like millions of other Republicans.
I think you've touched on a very important issue, Reuben. It seems that once you peel away enough layers, both our religious and political allegiances are defined by our fears. People tend to align themselves with something that makes them special and that they can trust to protect them from having to change that status. For Mormons its the fear that the church either isn't true or that it's truth will be suppressed by satanic and anti-religion forces (atheists, gay people, feminists, what have you). For post-Mormons it's the fear that our lives and loved ones will be controlled and consumed by a self-serving regime. For white nationalists it's the fear that they might find themselves in a minority that doesn't get to call the shots anymore and will suffer the same disadvantages that other minorities have experienced. Right-leaning people fear socialism. Left-leaning people fear fascism. Religious people fear a chaotic godless world. Non-religious people fear suppression in the name of a God they don't believe exists. It's all about fear what might happen if they don't show proper support for their clan.

It seems to me that if we could figure out a way to take the fear of The Other down a notch things would be a lot better for everyone. Unfortunately it is those institutions that we trust most that keep fanning the flames of fear to ensure that we don't stray. That's the bullshit that I'm getting tired of. And say what you want about Right vs. Left, but it's hard to overlook the intense focus on fear mongering that has swept across this country over the past few years.

But more relevant to this forum is the fear that is built into a religion that talks so much about peace and love and truth and light, but at the same time heaps blame and guilt all over anyone who doesn't fall 100% in line with its expectations. How can people be so convinced that they have the light and truth but also be so filled with the fear of the consequences of not towing the line? Seems like a contradiction to me. And that's not just a Mormon thing by any means, it seems to be a common thread across religions. They even had to invent an entire realm of eternal torture, the most horrible things your mind can conjure, to scare you into buying into their - often extremely un-Christlike - bigotry.
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Advocate
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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by Advocate » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:24 am

I'm purposely not discussing the tying of Trump to racists because I don't believe it's an appropriate topic for this board. For whatever reason, some feel the need to include their political views in everything and it isn't helpful to this board.

Was Oaks talking to "Trump racists"? Yes.
Was he talking to "Biden racists"? Yes.
Was he talking to "I don't like either one of them racists"? Yes.

Please stop making this board political by calling out only one group. There are plenty of places to discuss politics and how awful the side is that you disagree with. Doing that here does not support the purpose of this forum:
A place to love and accept the people who think about and live Mormonism on their own terms.

With that off my chest, I want to address the subject of this topic: Oaks' talk.

In my view, there are two major issues with Oaks' talk:
(1) The stuff he doesn't discuss
(2) Using Churchill to support not taking a critical look at history

I don't understand how a leader of the LDS church can discuss racism without even mentioning the racism that the church practiced, and was (at least I'm told it was) common among members in the 50s and 60s.

It is an actual shame that he uses the Churchill quote:
If we open a quarrel between the past and the present, we shall find that we have lost the future.
to support not taking a critical eye to racism in history, including in the bible. Especially given the context of the quote which was Churchill being asked to punish people who had not supported his views in the past, but did support them later. I think another Churchill quote is more appropriate:
Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it.
This was a talk to make white people feel good about themselves. There is no real call to arms or request for change, the only advice given was to love everyone and embrace the gospel. So glad we have apostles on the earth today to remind us that we should love each other.

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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by moksha » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:38 pm

Hey, I can say nice things about Trump. Many of his values go hand in hand with Early Mormonism. He could have done business with the Kirkland Anti-Banking Society and I am certain he would have delighted in meeting Zina.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Mormorrisey
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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by Mormorrisey » Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:51 pm

I certainly didn't mean for this to turn into a political thread, and for that I apologize. It wasn't my intent; it was my intent to deconstruct what Oaks said that bothered me. And after reading it again, I know what's bothering me.

It's the same thing that bothers me when I read that there is no such thing as systemic racism. That if one just works hard enough, regardless of the colour of their skin, religion or creed, opportunities abound and this will become a land of milk and honey for that individual. (And yes, Canadians have bought into this mythos as well, I hear it every day.) But that's exactly what the "land of opportunity" is, a myth. It doesn't exist. It never has existed, and that's why the study of history is important. That's why, in Oaks's recitation of hagiographical history, he talks about the founding fathers of both America and the church to its modern day equivalents in such glowing terms, and glosses over the racism, the inequality, the patriarchy, and simply ignores that there is a seedy side to both America and the church. But there was and is a seedy side, and it doesn't matter how much you want to believe that there wasn't or isn't, there is ample evidence to the contrary. Pretending it doesn't exist just exacerbates the problem.

How can you deny racism has existed in American society, when the nation went from slavery, to reconstruction, to the Jim Crow laws, to laws restricting the right to vote for black people? (Canadians love to pretend that we're better than this, that we've had no slavery since 1792 and no codified segregation, but essentially we had segregation for years, just not codified.) How can you deny racism in the church when people of African descent were denied saving ordinances and the priesthood for over a hundred years? It's just, utter, utter nonsense, to believe that racism just doesn't have much to do with modern society. It's just false. Just because I've never participated or condoned that kind of racism doesn't mean that other people haven't experienced it. It exists, and we need to do something about it, and it starts with recognizing that the past has been extremely problematic for people of colour, indigenous peoples, most immigrants, women, LGBTQ individuals, and a host of others that have been marginalized. And that maybe, just maybe, that discrimination continues into our society. Even Oaks recognized that.

Even in my own life, every job I've ever had, every scholarship I've won, every degree I got, sure, my hard work helped. But I'm simply smart enough to recognize that the colour of my skin and the shape of my genitals have had a part to play in the benefits I have received in life. I've been PRIVILEGED, and that's just the way it is in North American society. And it's about time, not that my privilege be taken away, but to recognize that that privilege needs to be extended to others who haven't fit the historical mold. And Oaks pretending that there exists in American society a utopia for the hardworking individual of any colour or creed, and that all America needs to do is forget that these problems exist or have any bearing on modern society is not solving that problem. It's creating it.

My two cents.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:42 pm

We’re all racist to an extent. That’s what makes us the same.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/olive ... u-are-more

Take the test here:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ ... estv2.html

I just did the religion test. I’m more biased towards Christians than Judaism and Islamic. Not surprised by this growing up Mormon and given the limited exposure to others not Christian.

Also did the sexuality test. I’m more biased towards straight people. Again not surprised based on the above reasons.
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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by 1smartdodog » Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:33 pm

alas wrote:
Reuben wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:22 pm
moksha wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:11 pm
In talking about those who continue in their racism, I assume Oaks is centering upon Trump Republicans, LDS apologists, and LDS fundamentalists.
That's my wife you're talking about there, dear penguin. She's not racist, she's afraid of revolution and socialism, just like millions of other Republicans.

I'm tired of polarized bullshit like this getting a pass just because it trashes the American right. I'm not going to ignore it anymore, because it's been getting worse. Please stop.

And if you can spare 15 seconds, please read my goddamn signature.
I think most of us know that some people support trump for reasons other than racism. Some are single issue voters who vote republican hoping to load the SC with enough conservatives to outlaw all abortion. Some don’t understand that socialism is not fascism. So, while not all Trump supporters are racist, enough of them are that Oaks could have been addressing them. And Trump has certainly added to the more recent open racism. Some of us see trump encouraging more racism with some of his remarks and basically fueling the hatred and we want him out of office before he starts the racial war that some of the racists are hoping for.

So, how do you want us to talk about the Trump supporters who are racist? Always say that not all Trump supporters are racist. Enough of them are that it is a problem. How do we address a real problem?
There are bigots and racists on both sides. The left just weaponized it better.


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Mormorrisey
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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by Mormorrisey » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:08 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:42 pm
We’re all racist to an extent. That’s what makes us the same.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/olive ... u-are-more

Take the test here:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ ... estv2.html

I just did the religion test. I’m more biased towards Christians than Judaism and Islamic. Not surprised by this growing up Mormon and given the limited exposure to others not Christian.

Also did the sexuality test. I’m more biased towards straight people. Again not surprised based on the above reasons.
My youngest kid loves musicals, and she tuned me on to Avenue Q, because everyone's a little bit racist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RovF1zsDoeM
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by Reuben » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:18 pm

1smartdodog wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:33 pm
alas wrote:
Reuben wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:22 pm


That's my wife you're talking about there, dear penguin. She's not racist, she's afraid of revolution and socialism, just like millions of other Republicans.

I'm tired of polarized bullshit like this getting a pass just because it trashes the American right. I'm not going to ignore it anymore, because it's been getting worse. Please stop.

And if you can spare 15 seconds, please read my goddamn signature.
I think most of us know that some people support trump for reasons other than racism. Some are single issue voters who vote republican hoping to load the SC with enough conservatives to outlaw all abortion. Some don’t understand that socialism is not fascism. So, while not all Trump supporters are racist, enough of them are that Oaks could have been addressing them. And Trump has certainly added to the more recent open racism. Some of us see trump encouraging more racism with some of his remarks and basically fueling the hatred and we want him out of office before he starts the racial war that some of the racists are hoping for.

So, how do you want us to talk about the Trump supporters who are racist? Always say that not all Trump supporters are racist. Enough of them are that it is a problem. How do we address a real problem?
There are bigots and racists on both sides. The left just weaponized it better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Please stop.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by jfro18 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:54 pm

My problem is that Oaks goes out to condemn the racism that founded this country while ignoring the racism that not only founded the church, but that is embedded in their scriptures today.

Just because you condemn racism today doesn't excuse or erase the explicitly racist teachings that are in the Book of Mormon, Moses, and Abraham. I detailed them a while ago on the site and no amount of apologetics will change what Joseph Smith brought into this church - they are white supremacist writings by the very definition.

And, last, if you're going to attack the founding of America by saying that the founders allowed for slavery to effectively get a coalition together, then please admit that Utah was a slave state by choice.

The rewriting of history is what bothers me the most.

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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by Hagoth » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:08 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:54 pm
Just because you condemn racism today doesn't excuse or erase the explicitly racist teachings that are in the Book of Mormon, Moses, and Abraham. I detailed them a while ago on the site and no amount of apologetics will change what Joseph Smith brought into this church - they are white supremacist writings by the very definition.
Yup. The apologetics on this is very weak. The solution:

Image
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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:13 am

jfro18 wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:54 pm
My problem is that Oaks goes out to condemn the racism that founded this country while ignoring the racism that not only founded the church, but that is embedded in their scriptures today.

Just because you condemn racism today doesn't excuse or erase the explicitly racist teachings that are in the Book of Mormon, Moses, and Abraham. I detailed them a while ago on the site and no amount of apologetics will change what Joseph Smith brought into this church - they are white supremacist writings by the very definition.

And, last, if you're going to attack the founding of America by saying that the founders allowed for slavery to effectively get a coalition together, then please admit that Utah was a slave state by choice.

The rewriting of history is what bothers me the most.
This is essentially the foundational basis of my faith awakening. The institutional dishonesty was just too much to ignore. The church expects me to be honest to be a temple attending member and yet the institution has been lying and denying since the very beginning.
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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by Reuben » Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:22 pm

alas wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:20 am
So, how do you want us to talk about the Trump supporters who are racist? Always say that not all Trump supporters are racist.
Honestly, that would help.

A big part of my wife's shift rightward comes from feeling unfairly stereotyped by her left-leaning friends online. ("The Republican party is racist." "If you're not anti-racist, you're racist.") Instead of consuming a wide variety of information sources like she used to, some of them left-leaning and more challenging for her, she's been sticking to sources with which she feels safe.

You already know how to avoid stereotyping, in more effective ways than spending a lot of words on disclaimers and caveats. Apply your skills to politics.
Enough of them are that it is a problem. How do we address a real problem?
First, do no harm.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Re: An Old White Man Discusses Racism

Post by Reuben » Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:30 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:13 am
jfro18 wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:54 pm
My problem is that Oaks goes out to condemn the racism that founded this country while ignoring the racism that not only founded the church, but that is embedded in their scriptures today.

Just because you condemn racism today doesn't excuse or erase the explicitly racist teachings that are in the Book of Mormon, Moses, and Abraham. I detailed them a while ago on the site and no amount of apologetics will change what Joseph Smith brought into this church - they are white supremacist writings by the very definition.

And, last, if you're going to attack the founding of America by saying that the founders allowed for slavery to effectively get a coalition together, then please admit that Utah was a slave state by choice.

The rewriting of history is what bothers me the most.
This is essentially the foundational basis of my faith awakening. The institutional dishonesty was just too much to ignore. The church expects me to be honest to be a temple attending member and yet the institution has been lying and denying since the very beginning.
Yep. It was one of the main two ingredients in mine. I could have put one huge issue on the back burner if I had been able to trust church leaders that it would all work out... but I couldn't trust them.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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