Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

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Hagoth
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Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by Hagoth » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:45 am

To stand up to his base?

Please, I do not want this to turn into a political discussion, but I need to use a political example as a frame of reference. The reason for this becomes clear when you look at the way the church labeled the slide inserted below.

Political right leaders who were vehemently opposed to Donald Trump suddenly became his lap dogs once he was in the White House. Why? Because they need the Trump base to keep them in power, even if they disagree with many of the things those people are saying and doing.

LDS leaders are in the same boat in some substantial ways. There is a large crossover between active church members and staunch Republican, even Alt-Right supporters (anybody who's on the bulk email list of an uncle or cousin living in rural Utah probably knows what I'm talking about).

Let's just imagine that RMN believes in the integrity of our electoral system, and does not believe a Democratic presidency would destroy the suburbs and prevent us from talking about Jesus at Christmas. Let's imagine that he is concerned about the rift in American society and the spreading of misinformation. Does he have the guts to step up and offer some guidance and clarification for his followers even if it means bursting some conspiracy bubbles?

I believe the church fears what they call the "Far Right" far more than they do the "Far Left." (these are the terms they used to identify the extremes of LDS members and movements in the slide that was leaked from one of their news briefing sessions):

Image

If you look at the green bubbles on the right you can see that they could all very easily be collected into one huge bubble that far outweighs anything on the left. If the greenies were to start doubting the prophetic power of RMN they could easily tear the church in half, or destroy it entirely. They would be a religious/political movement that basically already have a set of doctrines and marching orders in place and ready to go. All they need is a sufficiently charismatic leader to strike the match.

The people on the left, however, represent a steady stream of people who drain away into many different paths. They are a herd of cats who have lost interest in following anyone based on intangible claims of authority. The threat they offer is a flashlight that will illuminate a laundry list of problems with the church, but only for those who are willing to look at it.

All of the stuff in the middle is inconsequential. Actually, on second thought, the middle represents the actual strengths of the church, because the things in the blue bubbles represent the ways the church keeps a grip on people through shame and fear of "losing the spirit," losing your eternal family, surrendering to the powers of Satan, defying the Holy Ghost, betraying your community, etc. etc. etc.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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2bizE
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by 2bizE » Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:33 am

I don’t think he knows he needs to have guts. I think the Q15 are only fed green grass from an unknown valley in the Himalayas. Meaning, everything they see, hear, read has been censured. They have no clue what is going on in the world. For all they know, Trump is the winner of the election.
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deacon blues
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by deacon blues » Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:58 am

The challenge with the left is herding cats, the challenge with the right is leading or herding sheep who think they are rams. ;)
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Apologeticsislying
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by Apologeticsislying » Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:19 pm

Interesting post Hagoth... Yes, I think I agree, the right is always more dangerous to the church than the left ever will be. The current "prophets" are, for the most part, truly clueless about what to do or how to go about it other than spout banalities.
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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wtfluff
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by wtfluff » Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:30 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:45 am
Does he have the guts to step up and offer some guidance and clarification for his followers even if it means bursting some conspiracy bubbles?
As usual, your question just leads me to another question:

Has any other past CEO of COTPOTCOJCOL-dS™ ever given the sort of guidance and clarification you refer to?



And my initial gut reaction to the title question: No, Rebrand-Russell doesn't have the guts.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Palerider
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by Palerider » Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:27 pm

As much as Nelson has mentioned the 2nd Coming and the gathering of Israel lately I would have to say that he buys into much of what the right uses to keep themselves believing. He won't offend them because he's actually with them, except for a few stray cows who want to usurp his power.

Whoever made up this slide might actually be appealing to the younger or more disillusioned apostles who no longer believe inwardly that the 2nd Coming is just around the corner but would never say so outwardly.

I think RMN is going down the old time LDS "the apocalypse is coming!" road, but he may have some reluctant riders in that wagon. But no one dares to tell him (as is usual in the church).

I'm sure he'll have some nice paternal advise in his upcoming talk but then Soothsaying is a Mormon specialty. Everyone on the right will be reading between the lines and congratulating themselves on having special insight while everyone on the left will be plain old disappointed.

RMN will consider himself courageous for having delivered the same old pablum as usual in a redecorated box.

ETA:

Those last two bubbles on the right could very easily go over on the left in my opinion. I've heard numerous posters say as much here and in other places.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Hagoth
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by Hagoth » Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:24 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:27 pm
I would have to say that he buys into much of what the right uses to keep themselves believing.
That's a great point.
Palerider wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:27 pm
I think RMN is going down the old time LDS "the apocalypse is coming!"
And therefore may not be concerned about political turmoil because he would consider it a sign that the end is getting near. If fact, the worse things get the more validated 2nd Coming watchers feel in their end times expectations.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Five
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by Five » Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:07 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:24 pm
And therefore may not be concerned about political turmoil because he would consider it a sign that the end is getting near. If fact, the worse things get the more validated 2nd Coming watchers feel in their end times expectations.
Which raises all sorts of ethical questions, if the end of the world is foretold, yet when things start to go south, people stand back and allow it, or they hasten its destruction, how good can they really be? Just because you believe something is supposed to happen or will happen, doesn't it seem evil to be a part of that process? People are celebrated for their heroism all the time for standing up and fighting against hopeless odds all the time.

But with something like this, there's no way to say for sure what a downturn truly means. Empires rise and fall all the time. So, standing back and celebrating when stuff starts to get harder for the world... I don't know. Even if you think your God is going to return for paradise on earth, there's a disconnect there, watching people suffer in great numbers, that I'm struggling with.

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Palerider
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by Palerider » Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:58 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:24 pm
And therefore may not be concerned about political turmoil because he would consider it a sign that the end is getting near. If fact, the worse things get the more validated 2nd Coming watchers feel in their end times expectations.
Unless it effected the markets to a point where his $140 billion vanished into thin air and THEN he would start to seriously wonder why God had forsaken him.

Thank goodness for tangible assets, eh?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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moksha
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by moksha » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:05 pm

When I asked one of the posters at the Mormon Discussions site if the Church leadership might put its mouth where its claimed sense of morality might be, I was reminded that Church leaders do not speak about candidates because doing so would jeopardize the Church's tax status.

So even if Donald Trump, the great divider, is off the table, the concept of democracy and civility seems like it could benefit from a President Nelson endorsement.

I think Hagoth has given an important warning to the Church: It needs to extricate itself from right-wing ideology for its own well-being since its members get carried away too easily while under such an influence. The Church could well founder under some authoritarian regime.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Lucidity
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by Lucidity » Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:11 pm

I think you are correct that the believing Right is more dangerous to the leadership than the believing Left. Calling BS and walking away is far less threatening than say a Denver Snuffer situation.
Hagoth wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:45 am
Does he have the guts to step up and offer some guidance and clarification for his followers even if it means bursting some conspiracy bubble?
I bet they already feel they do this, at least to the degree that it is needed. I’m not in tune with church talks these days but I’ve heard the brethren discourage the “preper” movements and conspiracy theories. They obviously don’t go at it too hard. But I honestly doubt they know to what extent it occurs, nor see it as rampant in the church.

Mormonism is an apocalyptic religion. They actively expect the second coming to occur, like soon, and frankly are looking forward to it. When you really believe this to be on the verge of occurring, political strife and protest seem pretty inconsequential other than ushering in the lords return.

Also, this is a pretty Ameri-centric take. If RMN doesn’t speak out against corruption and strife in Mexico and Brazil or “socialism” in Sweden, or a dictatorship in Russia, then why would we expect him to here? It’s in the churches interest to “Render unto Cesar...”. If they only speak out about US issues they come across as parochial in the eyes of the worldwide membership. So as long as a nation allows the church to run freely then gods work is being done. Everything else is trivial.

I truly think that its just not that big a deal to the leaders of the church. In fact the decline of the US just validates the narrative.

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moksha
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by moksha » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:24 am

“He only won in the eyes of the FAKE NEWS MEDIA, I concede NOTHING! We have a long way to go. This was a RIGGED ELECTION!”
What could President Nelson add to this deranged tweet from yesterday, other than discouraging the Saints from grabbing their hunting and assault rifles, getting in their pickup trucks, and taking possession of Zion's Canyon and Wendover Nevada?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Advocate
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by Advocate » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:16 am

The only thing I would ever expect a church leader to say is what has been said before: Support your elected government leaders, we believe in honoring and sustaining the law, render unto Ceaser what is Caesars.

When you step back and look at the "big changes" RMN has made, you realize how inconsequential they actually are. The only thing the big changes serve to do is highlight how little past prophets have done.

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2bizE
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by 2bizE » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:14 pm

Elephant in the room question: who the hell is Robert Norman?
~2bizE

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wtfluff
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by wtfluff » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:23 pm

2bizE wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:14 pm
Elephant in the room question: who the hell is Robert Norman?
3-year-old hearsay from a certain podcaster on a different message board back when that "bubble diagram" was originally leaked:
Robert Norman = Former 30+ year CES instructor w/ expertise in Old Testament. Former mission president. Believes he's seen Christ and Noah. Believes that he personally will usher in the 2nd coming of Christ. Believes that God sealed him to a new wife while his current wife was sick/dying. Was threatened with excommunication, and so resigned.

We discuss him here: http://www.mormonstories.org/how-the-lds-q12-think/
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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Linked
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by Linked » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:38 pm

Five wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:07 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:24 pm
And therefore may not be concerned about political turmoil because he would consider it a sign that the end is getting near. If fact, the worse things get the more validated 2nd Coming watchers feel in their end times expectations.
Which raises all sorts of ethical questions, if the end of the world is foretold, yet when things start to go south, people stand back and allow it, or they hasten its destruction, how good can they really be? Just because you believe something is supposed to happen or will happen, doesn't it seem evil to be a part of that process? People are celebrated for their heroism all the time for standing up and fighting against hopeless odds all the time.

But with something like this, there's no way to say for sure what a downturn truly means. Empires rise and fall all the time. So, standing back and celebrating when stuff starts to get harder for the world... I don't know. Even if you think your God is going to return for paradise on earth, there's a disconnect there, watching people suffer in great numbers, that I'm struggling with.
Yes, Armageddon could certainly become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's an easy step in logic to say that the greater good is to usher in the 2nd coming as opposed to relieving immediate suffering. Shunning family members, purposely causing them emotional harm, is not particularly uncommon for people who stray from various religions. I agree with you that it seems like it shouldn't be that way, but if my dad is any indication then believers are pumped for the turmoil.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Just This Guy
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:00 am

Linked wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:38 pm
the greater good
Image
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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jfro18
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by jfro18 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:06 am

This video is an infomercial for the church, using the COVID pandemic to springboard into a talk about "gratitude."

That said, there are currently 323,000 people watching it... so it certainly has gotten the attention of many church members who have been told over and over again to watch it.

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w2mz
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Re: Does Russell Nelson have the guts?

Post by w2mz » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:35 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:06 am
...there are currently 323,000 people watching it... so it certainly has gotten the attention of many church members...
That is interesting. I wonder if they held it on a Friday during the day as a numbers test to see how strong their influence still is with the base membership in the pandemic. I mean, if it were really that important, why not have a special sacrament meeting message and deliver on Sunday? Why Friday at such an odd time? Especially if it was intended for the entire world. Wouldn’t he have reached more people if they bought a bunch of network time for early evening? The church is so weird.
The church has engineered your eternal family into a commodity that can be purchased with an annual fee. The fact that full tithing payment is a requirement for saving ordinances is the biggest red flag imaginable. Hagoth

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