The big lie

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Palerider
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The big lie

Post by Palerider » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:09 am

So I read this excerpt from a talk by Elder Holland. He's going on about how much he is giving for the church and that members should be like him. Willing to give their lives for the church and believing in the Savior.

All good and well except for coming across as a bit of a braggart.

But then he throws in this statement regarding why, in these critical times, members should remain steadfast in the church and God.

"“I hope that one thing we’ve all done is come closer to God, that we know that He does not move. He is not subject to pandemics. He can not only cure that problem, but He can cure every other problem in our lives,”

And that's what galls me. The implication is that God can and will cure "every problem" in your life. "In your life" carries the implication that it will occur in the here and now. Not at some future date after death.

Why would he say such a misleading thing, knowing full well that God doesn't work that way. It's a conscientious misrepresentation. It falsely raises the hopes and expectations of church members and then leaves them depressed, disheartened and in pain when experience teaches them the seemingly harsh reality.

Then when members question what went wrong when the expected result did not occur, leadership tells them they either lack faith or haven't sacrificed enough or sometimes we just don't know the mysteries of God's plan. A bunch of phony excuses.

A lousy band-aid for what was supposed to be a complete "cure".

So Jeffrey.....if you want to go on "giving your life" for a bag of fool's gold, you just make yourself happy. But couldn't you at least try not to add to the troubles of the world?

https://www.ldsliving.com/-I-am-giving- ... dium=email
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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jfro18
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Re: The big lie

Post by jfro18 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:59 am

The worst part is how they hold these lies over your head to keep you in the boat, but at the same time we can all look around and see they are objectively untrue.

God can cure the pandemic? If that's the case, why did he let 1.5 million die from it? Why did God ignore two worldwide fasts that were led by God's one hand picked prophet?

Why do good, faithful members die of cancer? Why don't priesthood blessings stand a chance against actual illness?

It's such a stupid thing to say, but they want people to believe there is a power in staying in this church when there just is none.

I cringe sometimes when I think back to how I believed there was a power from being in the church.

It sounds like Holland has spent his whole life trying to convince himself that it's true when deep down he knows that it's not.

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deacon blues
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Re: The big lie

Post by deacon blues » Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:20 pm

A lot of what comes out of the GA’s mouths is self serving and deceitful. To what extent do they understand that? I suspect like all others religions they let bias over rule reason. The golden rule gets passed over and the goal n’ the rules drive their behavior.
God is Love. God is Truth

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Advocate
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Re: The big lie

Post by Advocate » Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:32 pm

Holland would say that it is true that God can cure all problems, but that doesn't mean that he will cure all problems. Jfro's point is spot on about if God can cure COVID, why would he ignore two world wide fasts led by his prophet?

Holland regularly hits on the theme of giving your life means it must be true. He does the same in this article:
- Holland gives his life to the church, why would he do that if it wasn't true? Therefore, church must be true.
- Joseph Smith was killed by a mob and read the BOM during his last hours, why would he do that if it wasn't true? Therefore, BOM must be true.

By Holland's logic, we can know of other true causes:
- Jim Jones and the 908 people that committed suicide with him believed government forces were going to take their children, why would they commit suicide if that wasn't true? Therefore, Jones was right and the government was going to take their children.
- 39 people in the Heavens Gate religious group committed suicide so they could get a ride on a UFO following a comet, why would they do that if it wasn't true? Therefore, Heavens Gate people were right and are now on the UFO following the comet.

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Red Ryder
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Re: The big lie

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:18 pm

Beatings will continue until moral improves! :lol:

My special brain power is seeking out patterns.

Once you see them you can’t unsee them.

Patterns are the glue that bind.

They exist everywhere.

In religious beliefs.

In relationships.

In systems.

In time.

In lies.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

Charlotte
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Re: The big lie

Post by Charlotte » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:26 pm

Palerider wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:09 am

Why would he say such a misleading thing, knowing full well that God doesn't work that way. It's a conscientious misrepresentation. It falsely raises the hopes and expectations of church members and then leaves them depressed, disheartened and in pain when experience teaches them the seemingly harsh reality.

Then when members question what went wrong when the expected result did not occur, leadership tells them they either lack faith or haven't sacrificed enough or sometimes we just don't know the mysteries of God's plan. A bunch of phony excuses.
It does falsely raise hopes, and then the junior lie to the big lie is that no one can be happy out of the church. So you’re left bereft of solutions to sometimes unsolvable problems, and with an undeveloped ability to acknowledge and appreciate the happiness of non-members, and, very importantly, no experience with asking yourself whether you’re happy.

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Hagoth
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Re: The big lie

Post by Hagoth » Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:03 pm

Palerider wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:09 am
He can not only cure that problem, but He can cure every other problem in our lives,”
...but he chooses to leave these cures so rare and minimal that they are totally eclipsed by your own efforts and random chance. God of the very, very tiny gaps.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: The big lie

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:18 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:03 pm
Palerider wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:09 am
He can not only cure that problem, but He can cure every other problem in our lives,”
...but he chooses to leave these cures so rare and minimal that they are totally eclipsed by your own efforts and random chance. God of the very, very tiny gaps.
No, he was hard at work inspiring the Pfizer, Moderna, and AstraZenica scientists so they could come up with the most effective vaccine!

#GloryToGod!
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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2bizE
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Re: The big lie

Post by 2bizE » Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:28 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:18 pm
Beatings will continue until moral improves! :lol:

My special brain power is seeking out patterns.

Once you see them you can’t unsee them.

Patterns are the glue that bind.

They exist everywhere.

In religious beliefs.

In relationships.

In systems.

In time.

In lies.
OMG, this is half a chiasmus. It must be true.
~2bizE

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Palerider
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Re: The big lie

Post by Palerider » Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:35 pm

Advocate wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:32 pm
Holland would say that it is true that God can cure all problems, but that doesn't mean that he will cure all problems.
My point exactly.

This is what he SHOULD have said but he didn't.

Church membership and it's so-called priesthood doesn't cure alcoholism, drug addiction, cancer, pedophilia, spousal abusers, schizophrenia, and all the rest of the maladies that make our lives difficult.

But I'm sure some poor member out there has a story of how somebody had a miracle occur in their lives..... and maybe it's even true. Far be it from me to tell someone that God didn't really save aunt Gertrude.

But Holland makes it sound as if it's a regular occurrence across a broad population. And that is deceitful and not helpful to anyone dealing with difficult life challenges.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Hagoth
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Re: The big lie

Post by Hagoth » Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:53 pm

Palerider wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:35 pm
But Holland makes it sound as if it's a regular occurrence across a broad population. And that is deceitful and not helpful to anyone dealing with difficult life challenges.
And when all of these guys put their heads together at conference time all they can come up with is stories about people getting apostolic blessings and dying anyway, or people having the faith not to be healed.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: The big lie

Post by moksha » Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:16 pm

"Yeah, God could cure your problems, but it seems you only paid 10% tithing on your gross income. Come back once you've begun paying 20% and have the receipts to prove it. We'll fire up the ol' miracle walkie-talkie and see what we can conjure up."

Elder Bednar came up with the novel idea of having faith not to be cured.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Reuben
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Re: The big lie

Post by Reuben » Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:57 pm

moksha wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:16 pm
"Yeah, God could cure your problems, but it seems you only paid 10% tithing on your gross income. Come back once you've begun paying 20% and have the receipts to prove it. We'll fire up the ol' miracle walkie-talkie and see what we can conjure up."

Elder Bednar came up with the novel idea of having faith not to be cured.
I have the faith not to believe. Is that good enough?
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

hmb
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Re: The big lie

Post by hmb » Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:36 am

Palerider wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:09 am
Willing to give their lives for the church and believing in the Savior.
It's hard for me to take any person seriously as giving their lives for any cause when they are wealthy. I don't care if they gave up professions and lots of salary. They have far more than basic needs. True saints give up all and follow Christ. That I can respect, even though I don't believe. Large homes, free education, stipends to spend do not smell like true disciples. It's easy to give when it doesn't hurt.

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Just This Guy
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Re: The big lie

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:10 am

I wonder if we will see a drop off in the use of "world wide fasts" in the future. The one for wild fires in Australia last year seamed to help for a few days, but it was several weeks before they were able to get the fires under control. Two fasts for COVID has done nothing and it is still getting worse many months later.

I suspect they may be seeing that they are not bringing noticeable results and therefor it may be better to shy away from them to prevent people from looking at them too closely in the future. If people loose the connection between Fasts and results it may affect the income from members, sorry ,the faith of members.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Red Ryder
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Re: The big lie

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:54 am

hmb wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:36 am
Palerider wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:09 am
Willing to give their lives for the church and believing in the Savior.
It's hard for me to take any person seriously as giving their lives for any cause when they are wealthy. I don't care if they gave up professions and lots of salary. They have far more than basic needs. True saints give up all and follow Christ. That I can respect, even though I don't believe. Large homes, free education, stipends to spend do not smell like true disciples. It's easy to give when it doesn't hurt.
Especially when the source of their wealth is the same church they are begging you to stay in!
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Hagoth
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Re: The big lie

Post by Hagoth » Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:41 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:54 am
hmb wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:36 am
Palerider wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:09 am
Willing to give their lives for the church and believing in the Savior.
It's hard for me to take any person seriously as giving their lives for any cause when they are wealthy. I don't care if they gave up professions and lots of salary. They have far more than basic needs. True saints give up all and follow Christ. That I can respect, even though I don't believe. Large homes, free education, stipends to spend do not smell like true disciples. It's easy to give when it doesn't hurt.
Especially when the source of their wealth is the same church they are begging you to stay in!
And let's not forget the intangibles, like the worshipful adoration of millions of people hanging on your every word and constantly reassuring you of how powerful, special, and important you are.

Sure, a few of these guys might have passed up great corporate opportunities, but many of them came out of places like the CES. And some of them pretty much had their careers behind them. How many corporate jobs keep paying until you die, regardless of your output?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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RubinHighlander
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Re: The big lie

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:33 am

Palerider wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:09 am
So Jeffrey.....if you want to go on "giving your life" for a bag of fool's gold, you just make yourself happy. But couldn't you at least try not to add to the troubles of the world?
You are damn right he'll keep giving his life to the corporation and try to keep all the fools giving him their gold! He will use the troubles in the world to stir up members to keep giving it up and endure to the end. He will manufacture troubles out of little things, gaslight, lie, embellish, cry, do everything he can to keep that money rolling into their big fat investment funds and land grabs! He'll throw a new temple out once in a while to show members their tithes are hard at work to build Scrooge's/God's kingdom.

It's hard enough for me to think about all the gold I gave the corp over my 40+ years in it. It's sad, infuriating and heartbreaking to see folks live their entire lives in it, giving nearly everything they have to it. It must be one of the most dishonest and disgusting ways to make a living on this planet, convincing good hearted folks you have some magic sauce from a guy in the sky.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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blazerb
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Re: The big lie

Post by blazerb » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:38 am

Reuben wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:57 pm
moksha wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:16 pm
"Yeah, God could cure your problems, but it seems you only paid 10% tithing on your gross income. Come back once you've begun paying 20% and have the receipts to prove it. We'll fire up the ol' miracle walkie-talkie and see what we can conjure up."

Elder Bednar came up with the novel idea of having faith not to be cured.
I have the faith not to believe. Is that good enough?
I am tired of believing all things and hoping all things. I do not need to endure these things any more. I like the idea of having faith not to believe.

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2bizE
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Re: The big lie

Post by 2bizE » Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:19 pm

And I thought this title was going to be about Santa Claus
~2bizE

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