If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 48

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annotatedbom
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If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 48

Post by annotatedbom » Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:40 am

Warning
In this week's post I discuss sexual assault and victim shaming. If that might be too distressing, you may want to skip this one.

Click here if you are comfortable reading my thoughts on this week's lesson

Here’s a list of some other observations about this lesson’s reading.
(The sensitive information should not show unless you click the button on my website to display it.)

Hoping the best for each of you,
A-Bom

P.S. Next week I'll release the last of my "If I Could Ask" posts. It will explain why I think the "rock" the Church believes it is built on seems like nothing but air a great and spacious building floats over.

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Hagoth
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 48

Post by Hagoth » Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:07 am

"...so please don’t think I’m trying to say that Mormons in general try to shame rape victims or purposely think less of them."

Mormons in general, no, but not necessarily their beloved leaders.

David O. McKay said, “Your virtue is worth more than your life . . . preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives.”

Spencer Kimball taught this doctrine in The Miracle of Forgiveness: “Also far-reaching is the effect of the loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest... It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.”

A 1974 First Presidency statement informed members that if a rape victim does not resist her attacker “with all her strength and energy” she would be “guilty of unchastity.”

This is so damaging. Based on this alone, these men should NEVER be taken seriously about anything they say. I'm sure they felt confident in what they were teaching because it is supported by the Book of Mormon. So maybe the Book of Mormon shouldn't be taken seriously either. Any leader who backs away from this horrific teaching is putting themselves in danger of teaching that the BoM teaches false doctrine.

Despite what anyone says, this stuff continues to be taught to young women every time a YM instructor passes around a licked cupcake.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

annotatedbom
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 48

Post by annotatedbom » Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:18 am

Hagoth,

I totally agree.
See If I Could Ask ... Lesson 30 for my take on the dangerous idea that sex is like murder

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Palerider
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 48

Post by Palerider » Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:06 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:07 am
"...so please don’t think I’m trying to say that Mormons in general try to shame rape victims or purposely think less of them."

Mormons in general, no, but not necessarily their beloved leaders.

David O. McKay said, “Your virtue is worth more than your life . . . preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives.”

Spencer Kimball taught this doctrine in The Miracle of Forgiveness: “Also far-reaching is the effect of the loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest... It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.”

A 1974 First Presidency statement informed members that if a rape victim does not resist her attacker “with all her strength and energy” she would be “guilty of unchastity.”

This is so damaging. Based on this alone, these men should NEVER be taken seriously about anything they say. I'm sure they felt confident in what they were teaching because it is supported by the Book of Mormon. So maybe the Book of Mormon shouldn't be taken seriously either. Any leader who backs away from this horrific teaching is putting themselves in danger of teaching that the BoM teaches false doctrine.

Despite what anyone says, this stuff continues to be taught to young women every time a YM instructor passes around a licked cupcake.

I've wondered if there wasn't either a failure to differentiate between "virginity" and "virtue" in the mind of Joseph as he (or Sidney) wrote the BofM?

Or perhaps a "conflation" of the two? Or did Victorian times and minds actually see loss of virginity and loss of chastity as one and the same, even if that loss was made under duress? As long as the loss occurred outside the bonds of marriage, was the woman considered "fallen" regardless of the circumstances?

To me this enhances the proposition that the BofM was a product of the 1800's.

The Biblical scriptures seem to lean towards a woman who was forced as someone who had been shamed or humbled in the sense that their virginity had been stolen but not necessarily their virtue.

This from Deuteronomy (I think 🤔)

23 "If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her."

So even under the law of Moses it appears to me that there is a more just and merciful approach to rape than under Mormon law.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Hagoth
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 48

Post by Hagoth » Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:42 am

Palerider wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:06 am
To me this enhances the proposition that the BofM was a product of the 1800's.
Good point. It was written in antiquity, and intended for our time, but it matches the social attitudes of the time it was translated.
Palerider wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:06 am
This from Deuteronomy (I think 🤔)
So even under the law of Moses it appears to me that there is a more just and merciful approach to rape than under Mormon law.
Deuteronomy 22.

I think the next two verses are the most interesting:

28 If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.

This is a recipe to get an available young woman that you have your eye on, even if she or her family wouldn't agree to a marriage otherwise. You can secure her for yourself by either raping her or by making sure you get caught "stealing her virtue," and then buy her off her father as damaged goods.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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deacon blues
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 48

Post by deacon blues » Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:50 pm

I'm presuming most Jewish religionists of today don't take those parts of the Mosaic literally. But no wonder they kept women under wraps in those days. If you wanted a certain girl for a bride, all you had to do was . . . . :o :cry: :roll:

But as often happens, money could buy a better brand of justice.
God is Love. God is Truth

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moksha
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 48

Post by moksha » Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:54 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:07 am
David O. McKay said, “Your virtue is worth more than your life . . . preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives.”

Spencer Kimball taught this doctrine in The Miracle of Forgiveness: “Also far-reaching is the effect of the loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest... It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.”

A 1974 First Presidency statement informed members that if a rape victim does not resist her attacker “with all her strength and energy” she would be “guilty of unchastity.”
Thankfully, secular law has the ability to distinguish between the crime and the victim. Secular law is newer and benefits from light and wisdom having entered the world.

Even as religion goes, the above LDS thought demonstrates Old Testament thinking rather than Christianity.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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