Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

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jfro18
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by jfro18 » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:59 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:27 am
moksha wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:07 pm
Bill Reel and Consiglieri Live, talking about Kwaku and the FAIRMormon debacle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwKqcOj ... 5sK00OKf3g
Does any know know if they plan o release the recorded audio from this? That would be an interesting podcast for people who didn't watch live.
It's up - https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/202 ... -the-show/

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Just This Guy
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:53 am

Thanks jfro18!

Well, know i know what I'm listening to on the drive home...
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Hagoth
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Hagoth » Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:17 pm

So I got another response from FAIR.

As before, it started out by castigating me for having such a vulgar mind to even consider that four-letter acronym.
Please use better discretion. Your offensive use of a profane term for This is the Show is beneath any good person who has or does currently consider themselves a Latter-day Saint. It reflects poorly on any person who would do so.

I'm disappointed you would think this is OK as no one from FairMormon has ever used such a term for the program... It truly is beneath anyone. You should either use the full name of the show or the proper abbreviation "TS".
Of course he knows that clip comes from an R-rated movie and the vulgar acronym in question didn't come from me but is what supporters of the show are calling it, but he didn't really care AT ALL. The rest of his letter tells the whole story. Here is the bulk of it:
But here is the thing. The videos are working in spectacular fashion! Better than we had hoped. Previously, no one under 25 of the few thousand views other videos have had, watched anything we produced. Only 10% of those few thousand views, that took years to accumulate, were from people under 35. These videos, which have tens of thousands of views in just a few days, draw in about 10% from under 25, and about 37% from under 35. That is a wonderful, miraculous result.

We have examples of young people who had decided to leave the church... they couldn't believe the CES letter might be wrong. But when they researched the well documented responses in our videos, they found out we were telling the truth, so they panicked! They began to doubt their doubts.

Now, we want these to be as effective as possible at inoculating our youth. If they get solid information in a way they will consume it, this will inoculate them! They will not be challenged later in life.

The top experts in the Church on these various subjects addressed in our video response have contributed to the FairMormon research these videos relied on. I am confident every single response, which are fully documented in the videos, can be defended and trusted.
I can see why they're excited about these videos. I'm just a little disappointed that they are willing to toss their integrity out the window for numbers. I wonder if they are aware of how their numbers stack up to those of the guys on the receiving end of the baseball bat.

My concern is that these inoculated youth are encouraged to be hateful, obnoxious, snarky loudmouths, just like what they think all non-believers are.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by jfro18 » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:14 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:17 pm
So I got another response from FAIR.
This response is crazy - it feels like one of those "you said the quiet part out loud" kind of responses.

They might be seeing high view counts in these videos, but I would love to know where they're coming from. The TITS series was trending on reddit's "cringe" subreddit and I would assume that alone generated thousands of views.

Do you mind if I use the quote from FAIR in a write-up I was doing? Obviously I won't cite it to anyone but just note that it was a generic FAIR response... I think it's really fitting to what they're attempting to do here.

And anyone who argues that TITS is accidental is out of their minds - that was picked up immediately by both critics and deznat types and is no possible way something that was missed leading up to their release.

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moksha
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by moksha » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:21 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:27 am
moksha wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:07 pm
Bill Reel and Consiglieri Live, talking about Kwaku and the FAIRMormon debacle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwKqcOj ... 5sK00OKf3g
Does any know know if they plan o release the recorded audio from this? That would be an interesting podcast for people who didn't watch live.
It is still there on Youtube to watch even if you cannot call in. John was going to make the audio available for RFM.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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moksha
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by moksha » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:30 pm

Here is a video calling this FAIRMormon video on its errors point by point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSpThHZ ... e=emb_logo





Error: the correct acronym is TiTS, not TITS!!!
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Hagoth » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:41 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:14 pm
Do you mind if I use the quote from FAIR in a write-up I was doing? Obviously I won't cite it to anyone but just note that it was a generic FAIR response... I think it's really fitting to what they're attempting to do here.
Since it was a personal conversation I would rather that you don't use direct quotes, but speak in general terms. I wasn't trolling these guys for quotes or anything, I just wanted to express my concerns to them.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by jfro18 » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:58 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:41 pm
jfro18 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:14 pm
Do you mind if I use the quote from FAIR in a write-up I was doing? Obviously I won't cite it to anyone but just note that it was a generic FAIR response... I think it's really fitting to what they're attempting to do here.
Since it was a personal conversation I would rather that you don't use direct quotes, but speak in general terms. I wasn't trolling these guys for quotes or anything, I just wanted to express my concerns to them.
Sorry that's what I meant in the first place... make it vague enough so that it couldn't be linked directly back to whoever it was that wrote it.

One other thing I find funny about these videos is that they are deleting all critical comments online but will reply to emails - they clearly believe they are in the right, but they sure don't want to have that conversation publicly when it comes to both the tone and content.

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Hagoth
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Hagoth » Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:24 am

jfro18 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:58 pm
One other thing I find funny about these videos is that they are deleting all critical comments online...
and even turning off likes/dislikes. Now why might that be?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by moksha » Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:33 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:24 am
jfro18 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:58 pm
One other thing I find funny about these videos is that they are deleting all critical comments online...
and even turning off likes/dislikes. Now, why might that be?
I think the videos are meant to be absolute propaganda for young Mormons, with a two-fold agenda:
1. To offer a counter to information unfavorable to the LDS Church.
2. To be a recruiting vehicle for the new DezNat right-wing (young LDS fascism) way of thinking.

If comments and dislikes were to appear, then it might interfere with the indoctrination.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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alas
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by alas » Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:49 am

Do they not understand that people watching this are not necessarily youth who will be inoculated and stay in the church, but many youth who are post Mo who are looking for confirmation that they made the right choice? # of Views tell you nothing. The age of the viewers tells you nothing about what brought the person in to view something. The only thing they know is the did well on click bate. I often go to things on line that I disagree with intellectually just to confirm in my own mind that the people with those views are jerks of human beings. I watch Trump closely, not because I admire him, but because he disgusts me. I watch his followers also to keep in mind that they are not Christ like Christians. I watch how the church handles MeKenna Dennison’s case to remind myself that the church leaders are not Christlike men, but business men covering their own behind. I watched this video just to confirm to myself that the FAIR people may be loyal Mormons but they are NOT Christians who are capable of loving their enemies. Young people are more interested in the idea that a group is accepting of others who may be different, why young people support gay rights and BLM. So, when you have a demographic who judges a religion according to the kindness they show those who are different than themselves, just how do you think they will judge a video of bashing your intellectual enemies with baseball bats? Seriously? They think jokes about female anatomy used as clickbate (even when they accuse others of whistling dirty songs and pretend they are totally innocent of KNOWING what their acronym was) are going to impress a “Me Too” generation? Seriously? They think men bashing other men with baseball bats will appeal to those who are not homophobic? Seriously? I think their use of click bate is a big mistake. Did they ever stop to think that they have so few views from young people because they are totally out of touch with why young people are deserting the church and violence and dirty innuendos as click bate will attract young people for all the wrong reasons. And when your click bate attracts the people who only want to hate you, then you get more hate.

Their intellectual message is lost in their hate message and it is the hate message that will be remembered by both their loyal followers (Dez nat types) and their critics.

You just can’t sell Jesus Christ by bashing people with baseball bats. You only sell hateful fake Christianity.

Like trump supporters, I feel sorry from them because they cannot see their own blindness.

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Just This Guy
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Just This Guy » Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:01 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:17 pm
So I got another response from FAIR.

It is interesting to re-read your conversation with FAIR in light of RFM's latest podcast Mormonism Live #1. In that podcast, both RFM and Bill Reel talk about their time at FAIR doing apologetic.

RFM describes the system of FAIR when someone sends in an e-mail question. Before any response is set, they have a e-mail chain discussion with 10-15 various people in the FAIR system to discuss the question and see who would be the best person to respond to the question. They will often talk about the question asked and decide how respond.

Based on that, I find the claim that the person assigned to talk to Hagoth about his question would very likely known about video(s) in question. This denial is most likely a flat out lie. The response of denial was most likely decided upon before the first reply was ever sent out. I would venture to guess that the directive to deny any knowledge of the videos in question came from someone higher up in FAIR. It's standard operating procedure for Mormonism to deny something as much as possible until they are forced to admit it's existence. (ex: treasure digging, seer stone, polygamy, etc.)
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Hagoth
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Hagoth » Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:56 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:14 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:17 pm
So I got another response from FAIR.
This response is crazy - it feels like one of those "you said the quiet part out loud" kind of responses.
What's funnier is that I just realized that response was from John Lynch, the Chairman of FAIR.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by moksha » Sat Dec 26, 2020 4:04 pm

If you think of apologetics as lying, then these new FAIRMormon Kwaku videos are basically hiring a gang of carnival barkers to do the lying. It is thought that carnival barkers can be very effective with Mormon youth who have never been exposed to FAIRMormon.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Just This Guy
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Just This Guy » Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:48 pm

moksha wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 4:04 pm
If you think of apologetics as lying, then these new FAIRMormon Kwaku videos are basically hiring a gang of carnival barkers to do the lying. It is thought that carnival barkers can be very effective with Mormon youth who have never been exposed to FAIRMormon.
I wonder if there is more truth to that than a basic analogy. Standard Operating Procedure for LDSInc. is to so anything that have to to protect upper leadership. When a high profile excommunication happens, it is always on the local leadership to "make the right call". Let them be the ones to take the brunt of the criticism and protect their superiors.

TITS could be the same thing. FAIR has been getting hammered the last few months and the high profile people have been getting repeatedly embarrassed and their academics are being called into question in ways they are unable to counter. What would LDSInc. do? Find someone else to take the blame. Add a layer of middlemen to be the new facade. Get a couple young, hip, apologist wannabes who would jump at the opportunity to work for their apologetic idols. If they are willing to do it for free, all the better. That means they are even more church broke. Give them scrips, or more like just outline talking points and let them do their thing. The more noise they make, the better because everyone is focused on Kwaku and his buddies and the pressure is off the bigwigs at FAIR. Hopefully it gives them time to formulate new counterattacks or maybe fly under the RADAR until the hits from the last few months blow over and are forgotten about.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:17 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:48 pm
moksha wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 4:04 pm
If you think of apologetics as lying, then these new FAIRMormon Kwaku videos are basically hiring a gang of carnival barkers to do the lying. It is thought that carnival barkers can be very effective with Mormon youth who have never been exposed to FAIRMormon.
TITS could be the same thing. FAIR has been getting hammered the last few months and the high profile people have been getting repeatedly embarrassed and their academics are being called into question in ways they are unable to counter. What would LDSInc. do? Find someone else to take the blame. Add a layer of middlemen to be the new facade. Get a couple young, hip, apologist wannabes who would jump at the opportunity to work for their apologetic idols. If they are willing to do it for free, all the better. That means they are even more church broke. Give them scrips, or more like just outline talking points and let them do their thing. The more noise they make, the better because everyone is focused on Kwaku and his buddies and the pressure is off the bigwigs at FAIR. Hopefully it gives them time to formulate new counterattacks or maybe fly under the RADAR until the hits from the last few months blow over and are forgotten about.
This is the only reason I could possibly imagine why FAIR is adopting a "damn the torpedoes" approach to keeping these videos. I cannot fathom why else FAIR insists on championing them, when even members don't like them very much. On the faithful sub I browse, the vast majority of faithful commenters have condemned these videos; they really don't like them. There is a FAIR apologist who continually insists that young people love these videos, to the downvoting derision of everybody else. And everybody on the sub who has written to complain has gotten the same response as Hagoth to the videos, they are forging ahead with them. So I think JTG, your explanation is as good as any.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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jfro18
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by jfro18 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:23 pm

If these videos were getting the positive response that FAIR claims they are, they would have comments up or, at the very least, allow for people to give the videos a thumbs up or down.

I'm just not sure how you can both claim that these videos are effective both in terms of the audience and view count, but also turn off all measures of showing that publicly.

And the fact that these videos were trending on the 'cringe' subreddit would also have gotten it a ton of views from people just wanting to see the car wreck, which would also be an audience that skews way younger.

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Hagoth
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Hagoth » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:51 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:17 pm
There is a FAIR apologist who continually insists that young people love these videos, to the downvoting derision of everybody else.
Their numbers are, " about 10% from under 25, and about 37% from under 35. That is a wonderful, miraculous result." And how can they verify the percentage that love them? Most of this is wishful thinking on their part.

Their giddy embracing of the TITS approach mostly shows me is that they have no qualms about employing the same tactics that they accuse (often falsely) the church's critics of using, and that they appear to find so repulsive when other people do it.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by moksha » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:18 pm

It would be fun if the Kwaku-FAIRMormon Productions could do a Brother Jake-type video on NHM. The trouble would be to make it longer than 45 seconds.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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græy
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by græy » Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:58 pm

I was reviewing some old notes from the Elder Cook church history face-to-face that he did way back when and found this funny. It was from the Q&A portion...
QUESTION 3: We live in the information age. We live in such a world where Google has answers to every question. But is there a way to search church history to find reliable answers and stories? -- Where are some good online resources to search for doctrinally correct answers beyond lds.org search bar?
græy's thoughts: Why are Google’s answers valid for most any topic we could ever hope to learn about topic, but can't be trusted for answers on church history?

But here's the funny part...
MATT: The challenge is not to find answers, but to discern good answers and bad answers - good information and bad information. Online discussions produce more heat than light, so if your source of information includes a lot of emojis and exclamations, look somewhere else.
I would very much describe FAIR's new videos as emojis and exclamations in video form. So there you have it, the church says we can disregard the FAIR videos. :)
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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