Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

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blazerb
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by blazerb » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:07 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:24 pm
It seems to me that they are loosing enough in the 15-30 age bracket that they are willing to sacrifice anybody who might find this objectionable.

Is this a "Hail Mary" to try to stem the tide?
They may be assuming that members who would find the videos objectionable won't ever see them. I can't believe that FAIR allowed them to be posted. I would guess that FAIR had to be involved in funding the videos, but who knows. However, I know that I am not in the demographic that the videos are supposed to be attracting. Do people in the 15-30 age bracket think these videos are real responses to criticisms of Mormonism? The church does not seem to care about keeping the best and brightest it seems to me.

Arcturus
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Arcturus » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:27 pm

2bizE wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:44 am
I’ll be honest, I’ve haven’t ever looked at any TITS on YouTube before.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
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moksha
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by moksha » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:34 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:34 pm
I commented on the FAIR Facebook page about my concern that T.I.T.S is destroying FAIR's hard work at looking respectable and got erased immediately. The only comments left are gushing praises for the T.I.T.S videos.
Not surprising, since they are into revising the past and adding sugar coatings. Was this praise for TITS latest snuff film?

BTW, does anyone have a link to that picture from the FAIRMormon site of John Dehlin's head on Satan's body?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Hagoth
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Hagoth » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:13 am

I got a response to my question to FAIR about how they will respond to this stuff.

The guy who answered me had no idea what I was talking about and wondered what about these fine video presentations would inspire me to make up such a vulgar acronym as T.I.T.S. So I apologized for assuming that FAIR had a clue about what was going on outside their bubble (not in those words) and sent him a link to the snuff film and to Kwaku's post deriding Dehlin for contacting the police and bragging about his efforts to help dig John's grave.

I hope I get a reply. I'm kind of shocked that FAIR is either oblivious to all of this or has opted to keep their online apologists in the dark about the sh!tstorm that's brewing around their beloved institution.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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blazerb
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by blazerb » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:35 am

The most recent episode of Hidden Brain seems to me to apply to these events. You can find it here: https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/screami ... -the-void/.

It deals with the outrage cycle. The way to get attention in our social media world is to be outraged. Using emotion and ridicule get people to pay attention. The outcome of the crazy emotion is not to convince your opponents. It serves to fire up the troops that agree with the outrage.

Those who have left the church express their anger. It's understandable. I've been there. Now the TBMs want to respond in the same way. I've been there, also. Deznat has been stoking the anger for a while. Now Hanna Seariac and Kwaku El are jumping in. It's ugly. If FAIRMormon wanted to be academic and thoughtful, they'd stay away. However, more attention can be gained by stoking outrage.

I hope no one gets hurt.

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Yobispo
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Yobispo » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:56 am

blazerb wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:35 am
The most recent episode of Hidden Brain seems to me to apply to these events. You can find it here: https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/screami ... -the-void/.

It deals with the outrage cycle. The way to get attention in our social media world is to be outraged. Using emotion and ridicule get people to pay attention. The outcome of the crazy emotion is not to convince your opponents. It serves to fire up the troops that agree with the outrage.

Those who have left the church express their anger. It's understandable. I've been there. Now the TBMs want to respond in the same way. I've been there, also. Deznat has been stoking the anger for a while. Now Hanna Seariac and Kwaku El are jumping in. It's ugly. If FAIRMormon wanted to be academic and thoughtful, they'd stay away. However, more attention can be gained by stoking outrage.

I hope no one gets hurt.
I read your comment and my heart sunk a little because I think you're right. It's just stoking outrage. I think a part of me still believes the church has good intentions, even when I know perfectly well that they are as dishonest as the day is long, but when I see their bad behavior it still surprises me. I'm a slow learner.

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Hagoth
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Hagoth » Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:08 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:13 am
I got a response to my question to FAIR about how they will respond to this stuff.

The guy who answered me had no idea what I was talking about and wondered what about these fine video presentations would inspire me to make up such a vulgar acronym as T.I.T.S. So I apologized for assuming that FAIR had a clue about what was going on outside their bubble (not in those words) and sent him a link to the snuff film and to Kwaku's post deriding Dehlin for contacting the police and bragging about his efforts to help dig John's grave.

I hope I get a reply. I'm kind of shocked that FAIR is either oblivious to all of this or has opted to keep their online apologists in the dark about the sh!tstorm that's brewing around their beloved institution.
I did hear back from the volunteer at FAIR. He was a very nice guy and I enjoyed the exchange. They are pretty much defending Kwaku as a pleasant young black man who is being viscously attacked by an opportunistic racist for the sole purpose of stirring up controversy for monetary gain, just because he passed on a harmless joke, you know, like kids nowadays do. He claimed that Dehlin's YouTube channel is the only place on the internet where you can still find that video because he's trying to inflate the outrage to increase his already-enormous income. There might be a degree of truth to that, but I told him I didn't see it as an attack on an innocent young black kid so much as a response to a horrendous video made by a gun-toting alt-Right paramilitary group who might have easily excitable members who will take it as a call to arms - a video that was passed on by a representative of FAIR. He said FAIR has no control over what it's content providers do on their own time.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:41 pm

By next week it will all haven blown over.

I doubt the FBI really cares about any of this enough when there are real threats to the world.

Kolobdashians stay tuned for the next episode...
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:18 pm

blazerb wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:35 am
If FAIRMormon wanted to be academic and thoughtful, they'd stay away.

I wonder if, at least subconsciously, FAIRMormon is giving up on the academician angle. It hasn't been going well for the for a while. Various highly respected academics have been slowly dismantling FAIRMormon for a while. For a while they changed their tune that only "qualified" people could speak on various subjects. Well, RFM has basically destroyed most of their remaining arguments, using "qualified" people. When one of the most respected Egyptologists in the world calls their ideas complete garbage (in the most professional way possible), eventually it has to sink in that you are loosing ground.

When an academic approach can no longer hold it's own, what's the FAIR playbook say? Move the goal posts and try a new attack. In the case look the other way when someone uses your group's title as a source for a vicious attack.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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moksha
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by moksha » Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:23 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:08 pm
I did hear back from the volunteer at FAIR. He was a very nice guy and I enjoyed the exchange. They are pretty much defending Kwaku as a pleasant young black man who is being viscously attacked by an opportunistic racist for the sole purpose of stirring up controversy for monetary gain, just because he passed on a harmless joke, you know, like kids nowadays do. He claimed that Dehlin's YouTube channel is the only place on the internet where you can still find that video because he's trying to inflate the outrage to increase his already-enormous income. There might be a degree of truth to that, but I told him I didn't see it as an attack on an innocent young black kid so much as a response to a horrendous video made by a gun-toting alt-Right paramilitary group who might have easily excitable members who will take it as a call to arms - a video that was passed on by a representative of FAIR. He said FAIR has no control over what it's content providers do on their own time.
It took a while for FAIRMormon to arrange its cover story. The racist part is from Juliann at the MD&D forum who insists that all who object to this snuff film are racists. Even her own MD&D board members disputed this assertion of racism, thinking the snuff film's content was the true stuff of concern. Apologists like their smokescreens and Juliann being on the board of FAIR, I guess they adopted it.

So I guess we can expect more shock media coming from this Church group. Not the image you would expect the Church to have, but I suppose you need to be edgy to keep those DezNat youth in the fold.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Hagoth
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Hagoth » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:11 am

The best part of my interaction with my FAIR handler was when he patiently explained to me that the men in that video are NOT really John Dehlin and Jeremy Runnells, but Hollywood actors, and that this is actually a clip from an existing movie that was not even made by Kwaku El.

Whew, what a relief.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by jfro18 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:30 am

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:11 am
The best part of my interaction with my FAIR handler was when he patiently explained to me that the men in that video are NOT really John Dehlin and Jeremy Runnells, but Hollywood actors, and that this is actually a clip from an existing movie that was not even made by Kwaku El.

Whew, what a relief.
I think it was Bill Reel who used to work with FAIR, and he said basically they have a pool of people answering these questions, so it's like calling customer service and playing roulette with who can help you.

And I have to think a lot of the people that are volunteering their time to answer questions at FAIR have to be dead inside having to talk about why FAIR is putting up the money and credibility for these TITS videos.

It is hilarious that they're trying to say it's OK because they are actors... it's so dumb and FAIR has jumped all in on it.

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Advocate
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Advocate » Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:42 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:08 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:13 am
I got a response to my question to FAIR about how they will respond to this stuff.

The guy who answered me had no idea what I was talking about and wondered what about these fine video presentations would inspire me to make up such a vulgar acronym as T.I.T.S. So I apologized for assuming that FAIR had a clue about what was going on outside their bubble (not in those words) and sent him a link to the snuff film and to Kwaku's post deriding Dehlin for contacting the police and bragging about his efforts to help dig John's grave.

I hope I get a reply. I'm kind of shocked that FAIR is either oblivious to all of this or has opted to keep their online apologists in the dark about the sh!tstorm that's brewing around their beloved institution.
I did hear back from the volunteer at FAIR. He was a very nice guy and I enjoyed the exchange. They are pretty much defending Kwaku as a pleasant young black man who is being viscously attacked by an opportunistic racist for the sole purpose of stirring up controversy for monetary gain, just because he passed on a harmless joke, you know, like kids nowadays do. He claimed that Dehlin's YouTube channel is the only place on the internet where you can still find that video because he's trying to inflate the outrage to increase his already-enormous income. There might be a degree of truth to that, but I told him I didn't see it as an attack on an innocent young black kid so much as a response to a horrendous video made by a gun-toting alt-Right paramilitary group who might have easily excitable members who will take it as a call to arms - a video that was passed on by a representative of FAIR. He said FAIR has no control over what it's content providers do on their own time.
Kind of interesting that they claim "no control over members" as a defense but don't move to cut ties. Contrast with what happened between Bill Reel and FAIR some years ago (6 or 7?), when FAIR thought Bill was getting a little to pointed towards the church with his podcast comments (not part of FAIR), so they decided to cut ties with him.

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Hagoth
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Hagoth » Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:51 am

Advocate wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:42 am
Kind of interesting that they claim "no control over members" as a defense but don't move to cut ties.
Yes, in fact it seems to be the exact opposite. They are standing behind him as a harmless jokester who is the victim of racist assaults by designing evildoers.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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1smartdodog
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by 1smartdodog » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:46 pm

Really the FBI? It is a stupid video just like a million others that people waste there time on. Dehlin did them a favor by bringing attention to it.


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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Five » Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:34 pm

I am shocked. John Dehlin? Really? What has he done to be considered such a target? He's always seemed very even handed, respectful, and mellow, to me. I watched him do an interview with Sandra Tanner(I adore her) and he kinda went hard on her in the third part of he interview. I remember thinking, "Ah, is he kinda still a little bit Mormon?" But now I realize that he has some measure of dedication to providing more than just one side to his audience. Am I wrong? I'll admit, the last vid I watched for Mormon Stories podcast was the first hour of the 1922 private meetings with that research gal. It wasn't as tantalizing as I had hoped it would be and the gal, I forget her name, presented a lot of "maybes".

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moksha
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by moksha » Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:07 pm

Five wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:34 pm
... the last vid I watched for Mormon Stories podcast was the first hour of the 1922 private meetings with that research gal. It wasn't as tantalizing as I had hoped it would be and the gal, I forget her name, presented a lot of "maybes".
The very last video on Mormon Stories with Shannon Montez was the best.

Bill Reel and Consiglieri Live, talking about Kwaku and the FAIRMormon debacle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwKqcOj ... 5sK00OKf3g
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Angel
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Angel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:35 pm

2bizE wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:44 am
I’ll be honest, I’ve haven’t ever looked at any TITS on YouTube before.
I purposefully avoid it, do not want to add any views or popularity to it.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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2bizE
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by 2bizE » Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:39 pm

moksha wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:34 am
Hagoth wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:34 pm
I commented on the FAIR Facebook page about my concern that T.I.T.S is destroying FAIR's hard work at looking respectable and got erased immediately. The only comments left are gushing praises for the T.I.T.S videos.
Not surprising, since they are into revising the past and adding sugar coatings. Was this praise for TITS latest snuff film?

BTW, does anyone have a link to that picture from the FAIRMormon site of John Dehlin's head on Satan's body?
TITS with sugar Moksha? Not sure where this is headed... :lol:
~2bizE

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Just This Guy
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Re: Kwaku, FAIRMomon, and terminating Dehlin

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:27 am

moksha wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:07 pm
Bill Reel and Consiglieri Live, talking about Kwaku and the FAIRMormon debacle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwKqcOj ... 5sK00OKf3g
Does any know know if they plan o release the recorded audio from this? That would be an interesting podcast for people who didn't watch live.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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