NOM

jfro18 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:23 pm

I'm just not sure how you can both claim that these videos are effective both in terms of the audience and view count, but also turn off all measures of showing that publicly.

This is SOP for LDS Inc. Just look at how they stopped reporting membership numbers. When the growth of the church stopped being something that they could use to claim their truthfulness and started to look like something that could become an embarrassment, they simply stopped putting the numbers front and center.

Yes, the data is out there, but you have to dig for it. Most people won't though. When it is good data for the church, it is front and center. when it is not good for the church, they hide it.

Why would FAIR be any different?

Just This Guy wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:05 am

Yes, the data is out there, but you have to dig for it. Most people won't though. When it is good data for the church, it is front and center. when it is not good for the church, they hide it.

Why would FAIR be any different?

I totally get why they're doing it - I just think anyone who steps back and thinks about it would realize that if they were truly that proud of their engagements, they'd open up comments and the like/dislike buttons.

The church itself does this on social media, although they don't go out and brag about engagements in the same way because I think they're smarter as a corporation than FAIR is as a radicalized group of apologists. If FAIR had the PR team that the church had, these videos would have never been funded.

jfro18 wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:56 am

I totally get why they're doing it - I just think anyone who steps back and thinks about it would realize that if they were truly that proud of their engagements, they'd open up comments and the like/dislike buttons.

The church itself does this on social media, although they don't go out and brag about engagements in the same way because I think they're smarter as a corporation than FAIR is as a radicalized group of apologists. If FAIR had the PR team that the church had, these videos would have never been funded.

I think the church might be happy that FAIR is putting up these videos. They are not about informing the youth or answering questions. They are about sparking a sense of outrage and persecution so that young people don't even think about asking the hard questions.

Political parties always want to have persons who are willing to listen and speak carefully as well as the firebrands who fire up emotions. Both sides are useful in getting and maintaining power. I could totally imagine that the church's PR firm is glad to have a firebrand with enough distance that the church can avoid getting tangled in the fights. FAIR is also close enough to the church so that people know they are semi-official. The church gets to have both sides to appeal to the prog-mos and the deznats at the same time as well as the vast majority that are somewhere in between.

Just This Guy wrote:Of course, the one thing that would solve the problem is for the church to take owner ship and address these problem head on with honesty and transparency. But we know the church will not do that because they neither accept or give apologies.

They don't have to give apologize. They're rich to the gills and set for many lifetimes. They're just like the rich man in Luke 12:

18And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. 19And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

I mean- what's to worry about?

My main worry would be about someone calling himself "Soul". Something not right there...

As a PSA - Kwaku is going to be live with RFM and Bill Reel tonight on 'Mormonism Live'

I can't listen live, but am looking forward to listening to this tomorrow!

jfro18 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:24 am

As a PSA - Kwaku is going to be live with RFM and Bill Reel tonight on 'Mormonism Live'

I can't listen live, but am looking forward to listening to this tomorrow!

Assuming that Kwaku doesn't pull out at the last minute like a lot of apologies tend to do, this could be a really interesting discussion. Like you, I can't watch live. Hopefully I'll have time later this week to listen to the replay.

Unfortunately, my gut feeling is this could be a bit of a let down. Either Bill & RFM will be soft-balling it to keep from frightening the kid off, or Kwaku will find some excuse to bow out once the hard balls start coming out. I guess I don't have much faith in apologists to see them stick around for a totally honest discussion.

Just This Guy wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:31 am

Unfortunately, my gut feeling is this could be a bit of a let down. Either Bill & RFM will be soft-balling it to keep from frightening the kid off, or Kwaku will find some excuse to bow out once the hard balls start coming out. I guess I don't have much faith in apologists to see them stick around for a totally honest discussion.

Bill and RFM have already been clear that this interview is not to attack him or to put him on the hot seat... so I imagine it will be a "softer" interview but that they'll still ask a lot of questions about the TITS videos, the back and forth they had last year (I think?), and maybe apologetics in general.

I think it will be a worthwhile listen and to be honest grilling someone is not going to produce a good conversation regardless.

I've been away for a while,...but back as there are developments that are alluring.

One is the excommunication of Netasha Helfer-Parker.

But I just read above that Kwaku is gunna do an interview with RFM and Bill?

Oh gees....that outta be worth a sit-down and listen?

I've not followed this very much, but from what I've heard (when I did listen), Kwaku spends more time appealing to emotion than to factual information.

He is out of his league with RFM and Bill. I can't think of a way he could take a pro-apologist stance and survive. But, if he maintains his composure, the best I could see if they "agree to disagree".

We shall see?.....

(of course, he could capitulate and say: "You guys are right." )

I listened to the Kwaku interview today - it was fine. Just as with Jim Bennett, Kwaku comes off much nicer and less antagonistic when talking with those who no longer believe.

The interview itself was fairly bland - Bill had pushed back on the tone, but I wish they had pushed back more on the content. Kwaku's response was that they are allowed to hit back at critics and make jokes and honestly I agree with that even if some of them are really tasteless and/or mean spirited.

But the content of those videos was just horrible, and for whatever reason they never brought up just how bad their rebuttals to the CES Letter was, which was probably part of an agreement not to do a debate on the topics themselves.

I don't blame them - it makes for better interviews, but it was also fairly bland that way.

Well, I've got it downloaded and in the que. However, it will likely be Tuesday or Wednesday of next week before I get a chance to start listening.

jfro18 wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:33 am

I listened to the Kwaku interview today - it was fine. Just as with Jim Bennett, Kwaku comes off much nicer and less antagonistic when talking with those who no longer believe.

The interview itself was fairly bland - Bill had pushed back on the tone, but I wish they had pushed back more on the content. Kwaku's response was that they are allowed to hit back at critics and make jokes and honestly I agree with that even if some of them are really tasteless and/or mean spirited.

But the content of those videos was just horrible, and for whatever reason they never brought up just how bad their rebuttals to the CES Letter was, which was probably part of an agreement not to do a debate on the topics themselves.

I don't blame them - it makes for better interviews, but it was also fairly bland that way.

This. Kwaku has a lot of charisma. Much more than any of the current GA's. Bill Reel and RFM were really kind to him too, Bill pushed just a little on a couple of issues, but they both kept the gloves on, so to speak. I would have liked to hear Kwaku's back story- what led him from a suburban Texas/Methodist background to LDS/BYU? Maybe John Dehlin can make up with him and get the full story on one of his 4 hour episodes.

Kwaku with Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd7EdebQ194

Kwaku has a brand new video out called “The End of John Dehlin.” Not sure if some new Mormon group is bankrolling this character assassination video or if it one of the usual suspects just doing a clandestine end-run around after they had been told to knock it off and act in a disciple of Jesus manner.

The message to represent the Church in a Christ-like manner certainly did no get through, for the Danites of video have struck again with Kwaku's Stoners of Provo Production of The End of John Dehlin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCLZ4vWcGEU

moksha wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:57 am

Kwaku has a brand new video out called “The End of John Dehlin.” Not sure if some new Mormon group is bankrolling this character assassination video or if it one of the usual suspects just doing a clandestine end-run around after they had been told to knock it off and act in a disciple of Jesus manner.

Kwaku is a self promoter just as much as John is. He knows he’s building his influencer brand. Whatever that is. Big Provo Nuisance?

However, wouldn’t it be ironic if John was funding this through back room deals? You know, to create buzz around his own brand?

Red Ryder wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:41 am

Kwaku is a self promoter just as much as John is. He knows he’s building his influencer brand. Whatever that is. Big Provo Nuisance?

However, wouldn’t it be ironic if John was funding this through back room deals? You know, to create buzz around his own brand?

The thing is that John doesn't need Kwaku's attention nearly as much as Kwaku needs the attention of John.

Kwaku is clearly punching up going after John Dehlin and Jeremy Runnells - he's trying to build a brand as being the apologist who is willing to get into the dirt here, but he's also isolating himself from different wings of apologetics and really is limiting his reach.

I'm not saying John doesn't self promote his brand all the time as well - of course he does, but I just think in this case Kwaku is trying to build his brand by going after higher targets on Mormonism... and it doesn't appear that John is going to release any kind of response to it that he hasn't done already.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:41 am

However, wouldn’t it be ironic if John was funding this through backroom deals? You know, to create buzz around his own brand?

Sort of like Jesus staging that whole "Cross on Cavalry" thing?

I am trying to avoid giving him any hit, so I don't want to watch the video in question. Can someone summaries the major points of it or provide a link to someone who does? Bill Reel and RFM were rather vague about it.

Just This Guy wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:41 am

I am trying to avoid giving him any hit, so I don't want to watch the video in question. Can someone summaries the major points of it or provide a link to someone who does? Bill Reel and RFM were rather vague about it.

I had it going in the background when I was working on something else. It went over various scandals involving John Dehlin. It went over, for example, the accusation that Dehlin groped a woman and the dispute with Kristy Money. There were insinuations that Dehlin makes more money than what is reported by OSF, I think. There seemed to be a notion that if Dehlin is bad, then the church must be true. That's just good logic.

Kwaku strikes me as one of those people who goes through life with both middle fingers permanently extended, looking for any spotlight to step into. He's just the thing for people who want quick answers without actually having to spend much time thinking. At first I thought he was out of place at FAIR, but now I'm thinking maybe he's the formula they've been looking for all along. As the critical scholarship accumulates distraction and tapdancing become a more valuable skills.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:41 am

moksha wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:57 am

Kwaku has a brand new video out called “The End of John Dehlin.” Not sure if some new Mormon group is bankrolling this character assassination video or if it one of the usual suspects just doing a clandestine end-run around after they had been told to knock it off and act in a disciple of Jesus manner.

Kwaku is a self promoter just as much as John is. He knows he’s building his influencer brand. Whatever that is. Big Provo Nuisance?

However, wouldn’t it be ironic if John was funding this through back room deals? You know, to create buzz around his own brand?

I like the theory. The church always needs a devil and vice versa. Before his passing, Christopher Hitchens made some $ playing the devil to William Lane Craig's righteous christian leader. Why not Dehlin, the wishy washy liberal v. Kwaku, the new age convert?