So is magic officially part of the gospel now?

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Hagoth
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Re: So is magic officially part of the gospel now?

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:08 pm

wtfluff wrote:Can the placebo effect cure cancer?
I always wonder when the rest of the church will join me in noticing that the medical community has never shown any particular interest in Utah as a place where people recover from cancer at an abnormal rate.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Zadok
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Re: So is magic officially part of the gospel now?

Post by Zadok » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:18 pm

Hagoth wrote:...when the rest of the church will join me in noticing that the medical community has never shown any particular interest in Utah as a place where people recover from cancer at an abnormal rate.
Damn, I thought this was the focus of the Huntsman Cancer Center.
If I'm a bird, why can't I fly?

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RubinHighlander
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Re: So is magic officially part of the gospel now?

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:15 am

Hagoth wrote:
wtfluff wrote:Can the placebo effect cure cancer?
I always wonder when the rest of the church will join me in noticing that the medical community has never shown any particular interest in Utah as a place where people recover from cancer at an abnormal rate.
This is an interesting thing to take a closer look at. I've read studies that show that prayer statistically has no impact on the outcome of recovery or death in general for medical situations. To address Hagoth's comment on the medical community never showing interest, there actually is a study of breast cancer in LDS women in Utah vs. the average; it was done at the U.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1173093/

Here's the conclusion from the study:
LDS lifestyle is associated with lower incidence of breast cancer. The age distribution among LDS breast cancer patients in this study strengthens the argument that higher parity, lifetime breast feeding, and lower alcohol consumption have a preventive effect against breast cancer. Non-LDS in Utah approximate LDS behavior to increase social acceptability, serendipitously contributing to a relatively low breast cancer incidence. LDS showed poorer survival from breast cancer than non-LDS in Utah. Parity and breastfeeding, associated with lower risk of breast cancer, may contribute to poorer prognosis once breast cancer is diagnosed.
This conclusion seems more common sense than it does magic. The poorer survival breast cancer rate among LDS is interesting and requires a deeper study; not sure what is going on there. Now take the negatives statistics Utah has with a significantly higher youth suicide rate than the average, along with higher abuse and death from opiate pain killers and all is not well in Zion.

Growing up in the church I always wanted to believe we were the most special happiest, healthiest and blessed people on the planet, but as Shakespeare wrote "There is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so."
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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Corsair
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Re: So is magic officially part of the gospel now?

Post by Corsair » Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:10 am

Zadok wrote:
Hagoth wrote:...when the rest of the church will join me in noticing that the medical community has never shown any particular interest in Utah as a place where people recover from cancer at an abnormal rate.
Damn, I thought this was the focus of the Huntsman Cancer Center.
The Huntsman Cancer Center would have been a perfect place for demonstrating the efficacy of Melchizedek Priesthood blessings. Cancer is awful and any treatment that shows consistent results will be famous. I applaud science based institutions like the Huntsman Cancer Center but have no respect for the folk treatments that the Mormon church allegedly has "if you have faith."

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RubinHighlander
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Re: So is magic officially part of the gospel now?

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:14 am

Corsair wrote: "if you have faith."
Perhaps this is the thing that causes higher mortality rates in LDS women with breast cancer? They are confident in their faith, blessings or underwear will be enough protection that they don't do the screenings like they should or get the treatment soon enough because they think the priesthood will heal them?

I'm not being sarcastic here, it's a sincere question.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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Hagoth
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Re: So is magic officially part of the gospel now?

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:14 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Corsair wrote: "if you have faith."
Perhaps this is the thing that causes higher mortality rates in LDS women with breast cancer? They are confident in their faith, blessings or underwear will be enough protection that they don't do the screenings like they should or get the treatment soon enough because they think the priesthood will heal them?

I'm not being sarcastic here, it's a sincere question.
One of our NOM friends who holds a prominent position in a medical institution did the research on breast cancer in Utah. It turns out that Utah women actually have a slightly lower rate of developing breast cancer but also, as Rubin points out, a higher than average mortality rate. Oops.

This would make a fascinating research paper.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: So is magic officially part of the gospel now?

Post by moksha » Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:52 am

Corsair wrote:The Huntsman Cancer Center would have been a perfect place for demonstrating the efficacy of Melchizedek Priesthood blessings.
The Elders have access to patients desiring blessings during visiting hours. The nurses still provide the medical care and the doctors pop in to check on things and write new orders. Medical science has no intention of taking a back or side seat to faith healing. That said, things which give the patient hope and comfort are to be encouraged.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Hagoth
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Re: So is magic officially part of the gospel now?

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:19 am

How about a double blind test where priesthood holders and ex-mormon-former priesthood holders give blessings at a hospital for a year or so and data is collected to determine any variance from medical expectations.

I suppose it would be a bit too Auschwitz to propose an experiment with a medicine only group, a medicine plus priesthood group and a priesthood only group.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Newme
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Re: So is magic officially part of the gospel now?

Post by Newme » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:50 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Newme wrote:
wtfluff wrote: So you're telling me there's a chance!

Gonna have to remember this when my Alzheimer's kicks in. Then again, it's Alzheimer's, so remembering might be a problem...
:)
Still, you remind me of what I often wonder: Why do so many ignore the placebo effect?
The placebo effect is not some magic that has no influence - it's real - real enough that FDA requires medications be tested against it.
Will the placebo effect actually help when my Alzheimer's kicks in?

Can the placebo effect cure cancer?

I think we both know the answer to those two questions. I do believe the placebo effect can "help" a bit in some situations. I also know that the placebo effect cannot in fact cure diseases like Alzheimer's and cancer. Neither can magic oil, or magic incantations combined with magic oil, or magic wands (rods of Aaron,) or magic rocks, or "prophets seers and revelators," or asking an invisible alien with super-powers who lives near kolob.
Logical fallacies and cognitive distortions. All-or-nothing/Polarized thinking, jumping to conclusions etc.
Just because the placebo effect (which works based on individual/unique BELIEF) is not a guaranteed fix, doesn't mean it doesn't work.
IMO, It is ignor-ant to ignore inconvenient facts.

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wtfluff
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Re: So is magic officially part of the gospel now?

Post by wtfluff » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:37 pm

Newme wrote:
wtfluff wrote:
Newme wrote: :)
Still, you remind me of what I often wonder: Why do so many ignore the placebo effect?
The placebo effect is not some magic that has no influence - it's real - real enough that FDA requires medications be tested against it.
Will the placebo effect actually help when my Alzheimer's kicks in?

Can the placebo effect cure cancer?

I think we both know the answer to those two questions. I do believe the placebo effect can "help" a bit in some situations. I also know that the placebo effect cannot in fact cure diseases like Alzheimer's and cancer. Neither can magic oil, or magic incantations combined with magic oil, or magic wands (rods of Aaron,) or magic rocks, or "prophets seers and revelators," or asking an invisible alien with super-powers who lives near kolob.
Logical fallacies and cognitive distortions. All-or-nothing/Polarized thinking, jumping to conclusions etc.
Just because the placebo effect (which works based on individual/unique BELIEF) is not a guaranteed fix, doesn't mean it doesn't work.
IMO, It is ignor-ant to ignore inconvenient facts.
Would you mind pointing out what Logical Falacy, Cognitive distortion, or conclusion I jumped to?

I actually admitted that I believed that the placebo effect worked, and could help in some situations:
wtfluff wrote:I do believe the placebo effect can "help" a bit in some situations.
Please show me a study that proves me wrong in stating that the placebo effect cannot cure disease. I'd love to see the placebo effect cure Alzheimer's or cancer.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Newme
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Re: So is magic officially part of the gospel now?

Post by Newme » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:45 pm

wtfluff wrote:Please show me a study that proves me wrong in stating that the placebo effect cannot cure disease. I'd love to see the placebo effect cure Alzheimer's or cancer.
Please show me where I stated that the placebo effect can cure disease. You can't because I didn't. You're the one who assumed me to state what I didn't. You're jumping to conclusions and painting generalizations with a broad brush. You're creating your own misrepresented argument and then shooting it down, pretending like you won because you won your own straw-man argument.

From the FDA website:

"Guidance for Institutional Review Boards and Clinical Investigators

Before a new drug or biologic can be marketed, its sponsor must show, through adequate and well-controlled clinical studies, that it is effective. A well-controlled study permits a comparison of subjects treated with the new agent with a suitable control population, so that the effect of the new agent can be determined and distinguished from other influences, such as spontaneous change, "placebo" effects, concomitant therapy, or observer expectations. FDA regulations [21 CFR 314.126] cite five different kinds of controls that can be useful in particular circumstances:
1.placebo concurrent control
2.dose-comparison concurrent control
3.no-treatment concurrent control
4.active-treatment concurrent control, and
5.historical control"

http://www.fda.gov/RegulatoryInformatio ... 126501.htm

If placebo effect is just BS "magic" why is it given such extensive credibility by the FDA? :?:

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wtfluff
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Re: So is magic officially part of the gospel now?

Post by wtfluff » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:34 pm

Newme wrote:
wtfluff wrote:Please show me a study that proves me wrong in stating that the placebo effect cannot cure disease. I'd love to see the placebo effect cure Alzheimer's or cancer.
Please show me where I stated that the placebo effect can cure disease. You can't because I didn't. You're the one who assumed me to state what I didn't. You're jumping to conclusions and painting generalizations with a broad brush. You're creating your own misrepresented argument and then shooting it down, pretending like you won because you won your own straw-man argument.
You're right: You didn't actually say that the placebo effect can cure disease. I also never stated that you did.

You can plainly seen in my posts that I stated that the placebo effect can work, but that it does not cure disease, then you called me out for:
Newme wrote:Logical fallacies and cognitive distortions. All-or-nothing/Polarized thinking, jumping to conclusions etc.
I asked you where those things applied to my statements, and gave you the opportunity to prove me wrong by asking for studies that proved me wrong.

Once Again: The placebo effect is real, and it can help in some situations, but the placebo effect cannot cure disease.

I fail to see how previous statement is somehow fallacious, generalizing, a cognitive distortion, all or nothing, or jumping to conclusions.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

We are secrets to each other

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