Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

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græy
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Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by græy » Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:27 pm

I don't want to trigger anyone with this post, so I hope the warning in the subject is sufficient.

The recent CFM lessons are closing in on the end of the BoM. Moroni 9:9 contains the infamous quote:
And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue
I see how this verse is interpreted to be extremely cruel to anyone who has broken the law of chastity, but especially so for those who are victims of any kind of sexual assault.

This morning, while listening to Lynn Packer's interview on MS, John Dehlin brought up a phrase along the lines of "If you survived your sexual assault, you didn't fight hard enough." Which is one of the worst quotes I think I've ever heard. It implies that if you actually wanted to protect your own "virtue" you would have fought to the death, signaling that you didn't care about your virtue or eternal well being enough to fight hard enough AND that your life is worthless compared to that virtue you supposedly lost. Could anyone conceive of a more devastating thing to tell someone who survived an assault?

My question is, where does that quote come from?

I'm aware of Marion Romney's "But remember this, my son: we would rather come to this station and take your body off the train in a casket than to have you come home unclean, having lost your virtue." which similar, but not exactly the same. (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... e?lang=eng)

Does anyone have a source for the "didn't fight hard enough" quote?
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Fifi de la Vergne
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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:57 am

I think John was paraphrasing Spencer Kimball's infamous quote in Miracle of Forgiveness:

"Also far-reaching is the effect of the loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.”
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Hagoth
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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by Hagoth » Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:29 am

It appears that Kimball's sentiment hearkens back to statement made in April 1942 conference by President/Prophet Heber J. Grant, which was also repeated in a First Presidency message to church youth:
Sexual purity is youth's most precious possession. It is the foundation of all righteousness. Better dead, clean, than alive, unclean.”
.
Message of the First Presidency, Heber J. Grant. April 1942 General Conference
So despite all of the later backtracking, we get this sentiment from at least two Mouthpieces Of God On Earth™.
This language was apparently bounced around quite a bit between Q15 members. From an article called Rape and LDS Teachings: http://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleHarrisonRape.html
Marion G. Romney, in the April 1979 general conference, quoting a First Presidency statement of April 1942: “…better dead, clean, than alive, unclean…”[5] Essentially the same words are found in writings by Harold B. Lee,[6] Bruce R. McConkie,[7] Spencer W. Kimball,[8] and in a quote from Sir Walter Scott’s Ivanhoe, noted by President McKay.[9] Further confusion arises from basic misunderstanding of rape. Bruce R. McConkie in Mormon Doctrine, in a section on chastity, confuses rape with voluntary sins such as fornication, homosexuality, and masturbation.[10] In The Miracle of Forgiveness, President Kimball, speaking of a woman’s being raped, says, “If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position.

[5] Marion G. Romney, Ensign, May 1979, pp. 41-42; Conference Report, April 1942, p. 89.

[6] Harold B. Lee, Stand Ye in Holy Places (Deseret Book, Salt Lake City, 1974), pp. 332, 376.

[7] Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine (second edition) (Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, 1966), p. 124.

[8] Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness (Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, 1969), pp. 63, 66.

[9] Llewelyn R. McKay (compiler), True to the Faith: Sermons and Writings of David O. McKay (Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, 1970), p. 37.

The Salt Lake Tribune printed:
This message was preached repeatedly by LDS leaders of that era and in a widely read church volume, President Spencer W. Kimball’s “The Miracle of Forgiveness.” It was encapsulated in a 1974 LDS First Presidency statement, which asserted that only if a woman resisted an attacker “with all her strength and energy” would she not be “guilty of unchastity.”
I have not seen the exact wording of that 1974 statement but the FP backed off shortly afterward, as the often do when everyone else in the world points out to them how insensitive and uninspired they are, and released a second, softer statement:
It is conceivable that a woman could be so terrified by mere threats of violence or death made by an attacker that her sense of agency would be overpowered, causing her to submit without making a real show of resistance … . Under these circumstances, we feel that the safe course is for leaders of the Church to urge sisters who are threatened with rape to resist to the maximum extent possible or necessary under the circumstances, leaving it to their own conscience and good judgment as to the degree of such resistance. Furthermore, because of lack of knowledge of the circumstances involved, which only the parties to the rape would know, we should not presume to judge a woman who has been raped and who survived, leaving such judgment to the omniscience of the Lord. (136. First Presidency statements, 29 Mar. 1974, 8 Apr. 1974.)
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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by alas » Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:30 am

In doing counseling with rape victims, we told them that the truth is that with stranger/abduction rape, putting up a fight will might get one killed. With acquaintance rape/date rape putting up a fight sometimes works to deter the rapist, but other times will simply leave the victim not only raped, but injured. We would tell the survivor that if she judged the situation too dangerous to resist, then she did the right thing to submit, because she DID survive. We emphasized that getting out of the situation alive was the first priority.

I cannot even count the number of victims who told me that this idiot business that their virtue was more important than their life, had caused them to attempt suicide. Even women who were raped as small children, thought that they needed to rectify the fact that they survived by killing themselves. This crap hung around in the YW lessons up until the lesson books were revised, which I don’t remember the year but late 90s or later, I think it was in the 00s. So, it was still being actively taught to YW long after the rest of human culture had moved past telling the women when attacked by native Americans to save one bullet for themselves so they would not end up captured and marrying a “savage”. Yeah, “fate worse than death.” So, it wasn’t just a Mormon thing, but was quite common in Victorian times, but one would think we would have moved into the nineteenth century, by the beginning of the 21st.

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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by Wonderment » Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:50 pm

"For the Strength of Youth" has been revised slightly in the past 10 years or so. It takes a more compassionate view of survivors of sexual assault and sexual abuse:

"Victims of sexual abuse are not guilty of sin and do not need to repent. If you have been a victim of abuse, know that you are innocent and that God loves you. Talk to your parents or another trusted adult, and seek your bishop’s counsel immediately. They can support you spiritually and assist you in getting the protection and help you need. The process of healing may take time. Trust in the Savior. He will heal you and give you peace."

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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by wtfluff » Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:44 pm

Wonderment wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:50 pm
"For the Strength of Youth" has been revised slightly in the past 10 years or so. It takes a more compassionate view of survivors of sexual assault and sexual abuse:

"Victims of sexual abuse are not guilty of sin and do not need to repent. If you have been a victim of abuse, know that you are innocent and that God loves you. Talk to your parents or another trusted adult, and seek your bishop’s counsel immediately. They can support you spiritually and assist you in getting the protection and help you need. The process of healing may take time. Trust in the Savior. He will heal you and give you peace."
Better... Except... If only they would recommend talking to a real professional. Sorry, but bishops and invisible absentee magic dudes in the sky who wear togas aren't going to provide real help or protection.
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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by Just This Guy » Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:52 am

Wonderment wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:50 pm
"Victims of sexual abuse are not guilty of sin and do not need to repent. If you have been a victim of abuse, know that you are innocent and that God loves you.
Can someone please pass this along to the BYU honor code office? There have been way too many documented cases of HCO going after students who are victims because there were somehow doing something they weren't supposed to.
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Hagoth
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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by Hagoth » Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:57 am

Wonderment wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:50 pm
"For the Strength of Youth" has been revised slightly in the past 10 years or so. It takes a more compassionate view of survivors of sexual assault and sexual abuse:

"Victims of sexual abuse are not guilty of sin and do not need to repent. If you have been a victim of abuse, know that you are innocent and that God loves you. Talk to your parents or another trusted adult, and seek your bishop’s counsel immediately. They can support you spiritually and assist you in getting the protection and help you need. The process of healing may take time. Trust in the Savior. He will heal you and give you peace."
As usual, the church deals with it's horrible mistakes by quietly slipping something into a manual and pretending there was never a problem.

Unfortunately it's probably going to take another generation for this message to sink in for YW leaders to stop doing bug-in-the-milkshake object lessons, and for bishops to stop referring members to Kimball's book.

The real problem is that the church will not directly deal with this, openly apologize, and condemn specific statements made by LDS prophets. Those words are still in the books on Mom and Dad's bookshelf and all over the internet. I found them in about 2 minutes. A girl searching the internet for God's instructions to his official spokesmen will have no trouble finding them.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by River Morgan2 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:29 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:57 am
Unfortunately it's probably going to take another generation for this message to sink in for YW leaders to stop doing bug-in-the-milkshake object lessons, and for bishops to stop referring members to Kimball's book.

The real problem is that the church will not directly deal with this, openly apologize, and condemn specific statements made by LDS prophets. Those words are still in the books on Mom and Dad's bookshelf and all over the internet. I found them in about 2 minutes. A girl searching the internet for God's instructions to his official spokesmen will have no trouble finding them.
This was a real problem for me, a real self-esteem crusher, to be told that I was chewed gum, that I should have fought back harder. I was *five*, people!

Once my shelf broke, about entirely different things, it was such a wonderful feeling to know it wasn't me, it was them. All the thems.

But of course we were reminded by Oaks, (huffy voice) "The Church does not seek apologies nor does it give them." So people will still consider it to be canon that assault victims are chewed gum.

River
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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by Hagoth » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:42 am

These are the people who really understand what it's like to be sexually abused 13-year old girl, and to speak on her behalf.
Image
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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by River Morgan2 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:02 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:42 am
These are the people who really understand what it's like to be sexually abused 13-year old girl, and to speak on her behalf.
Image
Well done, Hagoth, well done! 👏 And, as an aside, although I've seen you occasionally on social media, I had missed seeing your tapir. Glad you kept the same avatar!

River
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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by alas » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:28 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:42 am
These are the people who really understand what it's like to be sexually abused 13-year old girl, and to speak on her behalf.
Image
Well done. And I needed that.

But you need to add Packer. I had a friend who was high enough in the church to be in meetings and such with Packer. He was horrified once when Packer said that “any adult who couldn’t get over something that happened to them in the second grade...” and my friend would not even finish the quote, he was so pissed. His wife was an abuse victim, so he knows it is more than a stubbed toe that happens to you in the second grade and you should be over. My friend has gone on to get the proper degrees to become a therapist specializing in child sexual abuse because he saw such a need that the church was failing at dismally.

Oh, and Richard Scott needs to be up there too. In ‘92 I was working as a counselor to rape and child sexual abuse victims and some of us arranged a meeting with Marlin Jensen. My clients told how they need help from the church to answer questions about healing and how God sees them, and is The Miracle of Forgiveness correct that they would be better off if they had died than to be raped before they even knew what sex was. My clients begged for some help from the church. And he listened, cried with my clients and promised to pass the word up the chain of command. Well, RGS was the idiot who ended up with the assignment. And his a** h*** talk threw some of them into suicidal feelings all over again, as Scott told them that if they looked hard enough they would see how it was really their fault. (Not his exact words, but how a sexual abuse victim has been taught to view things)

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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by Hagoth » Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:00 pm

alas wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:28 am
But you need to add Packer.
He should be a dark Vaderesque presence hovering in the background.
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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by deacon blues » Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:54 pm

River Morgan2 wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:29 am
Hagoth wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:57 am
Unfortunately it's probably going to take another generation for this message to sink in for YW leaders to stop doing bug-in-the-milkshake object lessons, and for bishops to stop referring members to Kimball's book.

The real problem is that the church will not directly deal with this, openly apologize, and condemn specific statements made by LDS prophets. Those words are still in the books on Mom and Dad's bookshelf and all over the internet. I found them in about 2 minutes. A girl searching the internet for God's instructions to his official spokesmen will have no trouble finding them.
This was a real problem for me, a real self-esteem crusher, to be told that I was chewed gum, that I should have fought back harder. I was *five*, people!

Once my shelf broke, about entirely different things, it was such a wonderful feeling to know it wasn't me, it was them. All the thems.

But of course we were reminded by Oaks, (huffy voice) "The Church does not seek apologies nor does it give them." So people will still consider it to be canon that assault victims are chewed gum.

River
There is a supposed quote from J. Golden Kimball, who said, "I won't go to hell because I repent too damn fast."
Hagoth's and River's posts remind me how people suffer when the Church repents because it repents too slowly, too quietly, or not at all. :cry:
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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by Keewon » Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:20 pm

River Morgan wrote:This was a real problem for me, a real self-esteem crusher, to be told that I was chewed gum, that I should have fought back harder. I was *five*, people!
Your story is painful to hear. Certain bible passages having to do with millstones and the depths of the sea and all that come to mind. I'm sorry for what you've had to deal with.

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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by hmb » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:29 am

I remember, in the 70's, one MIA councilor told us that you can't get your virginity back, but you can always become chaste and get your virtue back. If it was taken from you by force, you never lost it. If you committed sin, you can repent and become clean. She was a councilor before her time. She did not treat repentant girls as damaged goods. She was rare.

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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by alas » Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:30 am

This old thread popped up again this morning and reading through it, yeah, these are the kind of issues that Natasha Hefler is trying to address and once again the church just decides to shoot the messenger rather that look in the mirror and fix the problem.

Yes, so much I remember sitting in horrible YW lessons and hating God. What kind of a** hat God would hold a child as damned forever because they did not fight to the death over something they didn’t even understand by fighting their father?

It just says that females are worth nothing but a pure baby making box. Why did God make females human? Why not make brainless baby making boxes? Because if they have no worth as a human being, if their life is worth less than some supposed purity of their baby making box, then they are really less than human in God’s eyes. Yeah, I hated such a horrific God.

But I also hated myself for being born female. That was the only thing left for me to repent of.

This church is so f’ed up it is unbelievable.

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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:00 pm

Wonderment wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:50 pm
Talk to your parents or another trusted adult, and seek your bishop’s counsel immediately.
WTH?

They need to quickly talk to an ecclesiastical leader who has no training, and who historically represents a sexually oppressive church that espouses dangerous practices?

Two implicit messages are immediately presented to me here:
1. The bishop needs to make sure you didn't really just commit the act for fun, and that you were really raped?
2. The bishop, who could be a stranger or worse, a perp himself, is gunna counsel you about your rape?

OH MY GOD!!!!

Counseling with the bishop immediately is ill advised. How about talking to the police?

I do like the idea they should talk to a trusted adult. Perhaps the bishop is supposed to open the doorway to some physical and mental health services?

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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:04 pm

You know,...this whole sex thing creeps me out in the LDS church.

I am a father. I didn't have any daughters....only boys. They did discuss their sexual issues with the bishop. I found out AFTER the fact -- but then again, I was TBM back then and went along with everything. But I now have a grand-daughter. And the idea of her going in and having sexual discussion with "the Bishop" just creeps me the hell out!

I think it is absolutely wrong. Period.

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Re: Trigger Warning: Surviving Sexual Assault

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:19 pm

alas wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:30 am
This old thread popped up again this morning and reading through it, yeah, these are the kind of issues that Natasha Hefler is trying to address and once again the church just decides to shoot the messenger rather that look in the mirror and fix the problem.

Yes, so much I remember sitting in horrible YW lessons and hating God. What kind of a** hat God would hold a child as damned forever because they did not fight to the death over something they didn’t even understand by fighting their father?

It just says that females are worth nothing but a pure baby making box. Why did God make females human? Why not make brainless baby making boxes? Because if they have no worth as a human being, if their life is worth less than some supposed purity of their baby making box, then they are really less than human in God’s eyes. Yeah, I hated such a horrific God.

But I also hated myself for being born female. That was the only thing left for me to repent of.

This church is so f’ed up it is unbelievable.
Alas...just read your post. And, you've capture the misogynistic stint the church has about women and sexuality. I think immediately of Passion and Purity by Wendy Watson -- written IMHO to enshrine the Madonna persona, and throwing more confusion on the pile.

The church has a weird fixation on trying to draw the line between virtue and chastity -- and ultimately (and I'm gunna be blunt here), its like those creepy movies where the evil tribe searches for the virgin as the perfect sacrificial victim. I mean, I get that feeling from some of this. I immediately think of the confusion I heard when I read the talk: "Souls, Symbols and Sacraments" where Holland indicates the most sacred thing in the Temple is the marriage alter, which is made sacred by the marriage. And the most sacred thing in marriage is sex because that is the "sacrament" of marriage.

My GAWD! Am I supposed to fast and pray before sex? And <<heaven forbid>> I may actually like it?

Its wrapped up so tightly in this extreme religiosity its untenable. And it hurts people on all sides: not just those who are victims and told they have lost virtue and are "chewed gum", but also those who are interested in enjoying the time with their partner WITHOUT the religiously generated sexual shame that swirls around the entire act.

And, lets throw in the Church's position to NOT correct or clarify prior leaders. This quote is a doozy and shows just how much the church cares about women:
"Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Lion of the Lord, New York, 1969, pp.129-30.
This is purely degrading....and this came from someone who supposedly had received his Calling and Election?....IE, the Second Anointing?

Good thing Oaks came along and said (more or less) the church doesn't give apologies. I mean, after all, the church is lead by JC,...and since JC is perfect, the church couldn't possibly have to make an apology -- or a correction even.

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