Leaders who incite violence.

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w2mz
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Re: Leaders who incite violence.

Post by w2mz » Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:54 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:48 pm
I think it might be mildly racist to say that we are more evolved than perhaps Mongolians or people of the Middle East even people from Africa. Many of them are strongly driven to procreate, not respecting social boundaries.
I apologize if you read that into my comment. I'm absolutely NOT saying that we (who ever that is) are more evolved than any other humans on this planet. However, according to your logic, would you rather live and raise your children in the middle east, Mongolia, or say, Sweden? I'm not saying anything about race, I'm referring to societal norms.
SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:48 pm
You don't seem to believe in God so I will explain in human terms.
I see no reason to believe in an all knowing, male, toga-wearing, ancient, white, polygamist, who used to be a dude name Dave that was a dentist on his home planet. The world around me makes much more sense when I view it through a temporary lens. That is just my perspective. Everyone can believe whatever they want.
SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:48 pm
There is a magic that is created when a man loves a woman. The art of chivalry is a practice of empowering the feminine spirit. There is magic between men and women when they are in their element.
What about when a man loves a man, or a woman loves a woman? Or a person loves being independent and wants to spend their life exploring, learning, and being themselves rather than follow any conventional stereotype? Is that magic? In my opinion it is. Magic, as as I see it, is the feeling of joy and fulfillment that comes from within. It's not an external force imposing it's will on anyone.
SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:48 pm
We humans send our most evolved people into space. We use our best science and magic to put them in space stations. But without gravity they quickly lose their bone mass. Humans exist because of the stressors and pressures.
I like the analogy, but it's apples and oranges. You're talking about a physical structure (body) that evolved to survive in an environment of forces that it had to satisfactorily accommodate, otherwise it wouldn't have survived. If life would have evolved in less gravity, or greater gravity, our physical structure would probably be much different than it is today.
SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:48 pm
Americans are changing because we live in a bubble of safety that belies the natural of our creation. We could live in safely as long as we promote testosterone in socially acceptable ways. But without manliness, we are astronauts losing bone mass.
Maintaining testosterone levels in males to promote healthy bodies is definitely important, we agree there. My disagreement is only that perpetuating a mind-set or stereotype of a "manly man" as some sort of females only saving grace is wrong. (JMHO) Societal evolution and progress is needed, and in my opinion, inevitable.
The church has engineered your eternal family into a commodity that can be purchased with an annual fee. The fact that full tithing payment is a requirement for saving ordinances is the biggest red flag imaginable. Hagoth

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deacon blues
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Re: Leaders who incite violence.

Post by deacon blues » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:09 pm

Interesting how this discussion has developed.

As I stated in the first post here, Brigham Young was known to give fiery, threatening speeches. The speech I quote from in The Journal of Discourses is just one of dozens where Brigham and other Church leaders use threats, invective, hyperbole, and expletives to make their point. He emphasized teachings like blood atonement. He instituted what is referred to as "The Reformation" where threats of punishment, both open and implied were commonly used, especially on those who "didn't toe the line" If someone is unfamiliar with these things, there are several books and articles by writers such as Polly Aird, Will Bagley, William MacKinnon, and others that document the 1850's in Utah well. Utah in the 1850's was a Monarchy and Brigham Young was a king. He was even ordained king behind the scenes- google "Council of Fifty." The U.S. Army Expedition of 1857-58 was a reaction to Brigham's absolute rule. It has not been proven that Brigham ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre, but he definitely set the tone. Brigham was responsible for violence, just as governors like George Wallace, and Orville Faubus were responsible for violence in Alabama and Arkansas in the civil rights era. Neither Wallace or Faubus were convicted for their speeches, but their speeches and their failure to act against violence led to some terrible results and, I think, were criminal.

An example from the New Testament could be applied here. Jesus held the Pharisees responsible for misleading their followers. We should take a critical look at what leaders say. We give them power and with that power, they have increased responsibility to speak and act conscientiously. As Jesus told his disciples, "be wise as serpents and harmless as doves." I think Brigham Young forgot this, and nobody in Utah would or could check him. Even today the "no evil speaking of the Lord's anointed" concept keeps many from critically investigating early Utah history honestly.

thanks to those who have posted on this. I'm learning a lot from your perspectives. :)
God is Love. God is Truth

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Leaders who incite violence.

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:53 pm

w2mz wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:15 pm
This is why I think that when RMN says crap like the youth is the “Lord’s Battalion” it really falls flat with the kids today. The kids don’t want to be violent, they want to be accepting and loving. Those old duffers at HC are so stuck in the 50’s though they can’t see how idiotic they sound to young people.
But there is still a percentage of the young population with the warrior gene that want to prove themselves to the tribe. Think about the way missionaries are called soldiers, always singing "Called to Serve". Army/military references are strongly embedded in the culture and even though it's not as strong as it was, it only take a few to stir up many. We see folks jumping to those voices of warning that preach drama and last days BS because it resonates strongly with that segment of members. They need to feel they are part of something important, grandiose, and special; it buoys up their mental gymnastics that helps validate their extreme views. Even if leaders are not directly inciting violence it can be inherit in the culture and the words they use to stir up members and get them excited about something; even if it's just fighting Beelzebub and his minions.

In the next Ziontology conference there will likely be a couple talks that mention last days or touch on the war against evil, just enough to keep the drama members happy.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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SaidNobody
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Re: Leaders who incite violence.

Post by SaidNobody » Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:12 pm

w2mz wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:54 am
SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:48 pm
I think it might be mildly racist to say that we are more evolved than perhaps Mongolians or people of the Middle East even people from Africa. Many of them are strongly driven to procreate, not respecting social boundaries.
I apologize if you read that into my comment. I'm absolutely NOT saying that we (who ever that is) are more evolved than any other humans on this planet. However, according to your logic, would you rather live and raise your children in the middle east, Mongolia, or say, Sweden? I'm not saying anything about race, I'm referring to societal norms.
It's all good. My high school teacher was trying to explain how the "educated people" were dying without sounding racist. In spite of education being considered the modern Jesus, our ratio between "educated to not-educated is growing. Our brilliant plan to have 1.3 children is setting us up to be overrun. At this rate, the new dark age doesn't need to be a violent act. The educated will simply die out. To be honest, I am reaching an understanding that I think I could be happy living in the Mongolian mountains. But the problem isn't the need for convenience but the realization that to be safe, you need to have power. And to have power, you need education.
w2mz wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:54 am
SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:48 pm
You don't seem to believe in God so I will explain in human terms.
I see no reason to believe in an all knowing, male, toga-wearing, ancient, white, polygamist, who used to be a dude name Dave that was a dentist on his home planet. The world around me makes much more sense when I view it through a temporary lens. That is just my perspective. Everyone can believe whatever they want.
The universe itself is conscious. Like a Jenga game. If you pull out a block the stack doesn't fall right away, but it knows that block is missing. The pressure changes. In a sense, the entire stack is aware because the law of gravity tries it all together. Except with God, the foundation is quantum stuff. The slightest pressure on the quantum river and the effects are felt everywhere. Even thoughts, or words, will create changes that are recorded and marked in the universe. As for the all-knowing, male, toga-wearing, ancient, white, polygamist, named Dave. . . . maybe see a therapist. However, show me a people that believe in producing children, willing to invest the energy to raise them and educate them, and I will show you Dave.
w2mz wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:54 am
SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:48 pm
There is a magic that is created when a man loves a woman. The art of chivalry is a practice of empowering the feminine spirit. There is magic between men and women when they are in their element.
What about when a man loves a man, or a woman loves a woman? Or a person loves being independent and wants to spend their life exploring, learning, and being themselves rather than follow any conventional stereotype? Is that magic? In my opinion it is. Magic, as as I see it, is the feeling of joy and fulfillment that comes from within. It's not an external force imposing it's will on anyone.
A man can love a man, or a woman love a woman. I don't care. However, if I am going to find a group of people that is willing to bear many children and educate them, Micheal Bolton (when a man loves a woman) will be "In the air tonight." (Phil Collins) Pligs have always known they were a "tool" in God's toolbox. Now that borders are being down, how long will it take to displace "educated people?"
w2mz wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:54 am
SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:48 pm
We humans send our most evolved people into space. We use our best science and magic to put them in space stations. But without gravity they quickly lose their bone mass. Humans exist because of the stressors and pressures.
I like the analogy, but it's apples and oranges. You're talking about a physical structure (body) that evolved to survive in an environment of forces that it had to satisfactorily accommodate, otherwise it wouldn't have survived. If life would have evolved in less gravity, or greater gravity, our physical structure would probably be much different than it is today.
But we didn't evolve in less gravity. But the analogy rule remains the same. Life works because of the stressors. If you take those stressors away it collapses. I could give you thousands of examples. Like, when people retire and then die shortly afterward. Without the purpose and fight, they die. I have gone months ranting about the "use it or lose it." Life is literally the fight against death.
w2mz wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:54 am
SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:48 pm
Americans are changing because we live in a bubble of safety that belies the natural of our creation. We could live in safely as long as we promote testosterone in socially acceptable ways. But without manliness, we are astronauts losing bone mass.
Maintaining testosterone levels in males to promote healthy bodies is definitely important, we agree there. My disagreement is only that perpetuating a mind-set or stereotype of a "manly man" as some sort of females only saving grace is wrong. (JMHO) Societal evolution and progress is needed, and in my opinion, inevitable.
Some of the complexities of life are mind-numbing. We all descend from the most aggressive males. The same type of males we would lock away simply from looking at them. Evolution isn't passive, it favors those that fight for survival. Someone once philosophized about what the earth would be like if that iron planet hadn't crashed into it. Life might have started. But it was the tides created by the moon that created the stressors that make life walk. Without the extra gravity, trees may have never grown hard but instead remained soft and viney. Life would have grown, but it would be very different. Without killers, we wouldn't have tried to make our families safe. "God gave us weakness to make us strong." It is the struggles we face and overcome that build our bodies and souls.

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