Marrying a 14 Year Old

[document]

A while back my friend (believer) and I had a conversation where I posed a hypothetical of a church leader in their forties requesting permission to marry his oldest daughter (she is 14). He said that the hypothetical was irrelevant because we live in a different time where that is considered taboo because it is illegal. When Joseph Smith married Helen Mar Kimball it would not have been illegal (if it were his first wife) and therefore it was totally OK. Today, it would be illegal and thus it is totally different and not OK.

A couple weeks ago a different friend and I were discussing something unrelated but got on the subject of marriage laws. I looked up the marriage age in the fifty states and realized that there were 4 states where the marrying age was 14 or below with parental permission (Alaska, New Hampshire, New York, and North Carolina). Many states (27) do not set a mandatory minimum if there is both parental and court permission. So, the marriage to Helen Mar would be within statutory laws in 31 of the states granted appropriate approvals (Joseph Smith had the courts in Nauvoo on his side, so that would have been an absolute snap).

With this new information, I've been lying in wait. I finally got the opportunity today when he brought it up yet again.

I posed the hypothetical again, and he again batted me down saying it was irrelevant. I explained that it still could happen in 4 states if he granted it, and 31 if he granted it and the prophet had control of the courts (as Smith did). So, what would he do if a high up church leader, by commandment of God, requested permission to marry his daughter (and presumably sleep with her)?

He couldn't answer, but boy howdy his face did. He contorted it and made a "this is a nasty thought" look as he imagined his daughter next to a 40-something marrying him. He said so that the thought was turning his stomach. He finally conceded that he couldn't do it not because it was wrong, but because he lacks faith.

I finally got through that Joseph Smith was doing something immoral, and his immediate reaction was to blame himself. Joseph Smith couldn't be doing something bad, my friend must be for lacking faith.

[Silver Girl]

I posed a similar question to at least four PH leaders - each one blanched at the idea, but could not answer it. When you point out they have daughters (or granddaughters, etc.) who could be similarly victimized, they can't cope with it. It makes me want to scream when TBMs fall back on the claim that it was common to marry at that age back then (which is not true). At that point, I ask whether other girls who married older men were told God commanded it (the common response is crickets - blank looks). Then I ask about wives of other men.

Joseph Smith was disgusting.

[Meilingkie]

Maybe it says something about me, but OK.
Working in a very testosterone-heavy environment (shipping) I let my eyes wander a bit.
Many young ladies get employed, one even better looking than the other.
ANd then I think: Hmm, when she was born I probably was in College, or just married.
(Married at 20, almost 40 now)

Then I snap out, and think, get some-one closer to your age.
Still, it´s nice to see

And JS was looking at much younger girls, and not thinking anything bad of it.

Proves to me, most of all, that everything is about sex, except sex.
Sex is about power.
And power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[wtfluff]

He finally conceded that he couldn't do it not because it was wrong, but because he lacks faith.

Boy, am I glad that I also lack faith.

The faith that it would take to give your daughter to a sexual predator sounds absolutely, and completely stupid and useless.

I don't have faith in faith
I don't believe in belief
You can call me faithless...

[LaMachina]

I feel for believers when confronted with these types of questions. God asked Abraham to murder his son and most believers would suggest he demonstrated great faith by trying to go through with it. Jesus told the righteous, rich young man to give up EVERYTHING in order to be truly worthy. If someone believes that God has requested their 14 year old daughter, either directly or through someone they consider a true servant, what are they to do?

Personally I would give the double middle finger to any and all of the above requests but someone who wants to follow the God of the bible either has to pony up and be faithful or rationalize why such a request isn't of god. Or express gratitude that they haven't been asked yet. I've seen all three responses and the only one that doesn't scare me to death is rationalizing the request as being ungodly. That, however, is arguably the most unfaithful response.

[Corsair]

A while back my friend (believer) and I had a conversation where I posed a hypothetical of a church leader in their forties requesting permission to marry his oldest daughter (she is 14).

I had the chance to pose the same question to an apologist friend and his wife. They are in a similar situation with two daughters around this age. They similarly had a visceral, emotional reaction on their faces. But they have a firm testimony of the LDS church and the wife finally summoned her faith in the institutional church and gave me an answer. She said she would allow her daughters to marry an apostle if there were a sufficiently divine manifestation confirming this situation. She basically wants an angel to appear. I do respect this answer even though I am confident that this presents a safe barrier against this ever occurring.

The obvious problem is that there are plenty of people that would have a much lower barrier. We can point at the tens of thousands of faithful FLDS in Utah alone.

[alas]

A while back my friend (believer) and I had a conversation where I posed a hypothetical of a church leader in their forties requesting permission to marry his oldest daughter (she is 14).

I had the chance to pose the same question to an apologist friend and his wife. They are in a similar situation with two daughters around this age. They similarly had a visceral, emotional reaction on their faces. But they have a firm testimony of the LDS church and the wife finally summoned her faith in the institutional church and gave me an answer. She said she would allow her daughters to marry an apostle if there were a sufficiently divine manifestation confirming this situation. She basically wants an angel to appear. I do respect this answer even though I am confident that this presents a safe barrier against this ever occurring.

The obvious problem is that there are plenty of people that would have a much lower barrier. We can point at the tens of thousands of faithful FLDS in Utah alone.

I rather approve of the qualification of insisting that one gets a personal manifestation from God that the request is of God, rather than taking a supposed prophet's word for it. Think about the parents who would leave the FLDS rather than let their daughters be abused unless they had an angel come to them and tell them it was right. No angel would show up, and so no child would be abused. Think about Sarah knocking Abraham over the head with a two by four rather than let him go out and murder her son because no angel told her it was right. Well, maybe Sarah is a different case because she laughed at the angel who told her that she would have a son. So, I guess some people need MORE than an angel telling them in order to believe the unbelievable. (But then angel just meant "messenger" and if a human messenger came, one now-a-days would simply call them a prophet or spokesman for the prophet, and we have no evidence that the messenger that came to Abraham and Sarah was a spirit type angel rather than a human type angel.) Think about Violet Kimble saying to Heber, "What the hell? I won't let my daughter marry anybody until she is old enough and SHE chooses to marry, unless I personally have an angel come tell me it is right." Think about the kids that David Koresh or Jim Jones abused whose parents just turned them over, without any angel from God telling them it was right. A couple of women had the guts to tell Joseph the equivalent of, "Well, no angel told ME that I needed to marry you."

Personally, if an angel came to me and told me to leave my husband and marry the prophet, once I stopped poking them to see exactly what kind of angel they were, and got over laughing at them, and they convinced me they really were from God, and said angel had a damned good reason, then I would have to decide whether I loved God or my husband more, and ....um.... That ain't no contest, I love my husband, so I would just end up telling God to jump in the lake. See, THAT is lacking faith. Because you know it comes from God but think God is a dodo bird. See, me and Sarah need more than an angel from God in order to believe the unbelievable. Doing what you feel is wrong because some man tells you God says, that is just stupid. You have to know it really is from God and then say no, for it to be a lack of faith.

And some people know that God is good, so even an angel would not convince us to do what feels wrong.

[document]

Personally, if an angel came to me and told me to leave my husband and marry the prophet, once I stopped poking them to see exactly what kind of angel they were, and got over laughing at them, and they convinced me they really were from God, and said angel had a damned good reason, then I would have to decide whether I loved God or my husband more, and ....um.... That ain't no contest, I love my husband, so I would just end up telling God to jump in the lake.

The problem is that you were poking him, not asking to shake his hand.