Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

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no1saint
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Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by no1saint » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:04 am

Launching March 3, a document covering the salamander letter and Hoffman. I can’t wait.

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moksha
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by moksha » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:15 am

It is probably time for a White Salamander statue to be placed in the Utah State Capitol, although the US Capitol could also stand to have this outstanding contribution from Utah as well. That statue could stand proudly with the statues of Martha Hughes Cannon (a Sister-Wife of George Q. Cannon) and Brigham Young. Although the White Salamander may not be a polygamist, it still represents many Utah qualities.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Just This Guy
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:06 am

I will be waiting for your guy's reviews of this. A banner for this came up on our Netflix account. DW as somewhat interested. If it is just the Mark Hoffman case, she likely won't be further interested. However if they get into more detail about Mormon culture, she may be. So I'll see what you have to say on it.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 pm

moksha wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:15 am
It is probably time for a White Salamander statue to be placed in the Utah State Capitol, although the US Capitol could also stand to have this outstanding contribution from Utah as well. That statue could stand proudly with the statues of Martha Hughes Cannon (a Sister-Wife of George Q. Cannon) and Brigham Young. Although the White Salamander may not be a polygamist, it still represents many Utah qualities.
I love this idea. Let's also include a painting in the visitors center of this:
Image
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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Corsair
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by Corsair » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:06 pm

I generally think that most Mormons will consider this movie to be spiritual pornography. As interesting as it might be, there's virtually no way for believers to have a good feeling about this even if the actual bomber was caught and put in prison for life.

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moksha
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by moksha » Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:01 am

Corsair wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:06 pm
I generally think that most Mormons will consider this movie to be spiritual pornography. As interesting as it might be, there's virtually no way for believers to have a good feeling about this even if the actual bomber was caught and put in prison for life.
Do you think we will be warned against this as a Sacrament Meeting announcement?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Yobispo
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by Yobispo » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:34 pm

Corsair wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:06 pm
I generally think that most Mormons will consider this movie to be spiritual pornography. As interesting as it might be, there's virtually no way for believers to have a good feeling about this even if the actual bomber was caught and put in prison for life.
"spiritual pornography" - I hate that term. I hate that I used to use that term even more.

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jfro18
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by jfro18 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:31 pm

Corsair wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:06 pm
I generally think that most Mormons will consider this movie to be spiritual pornography. As interesting as it might be, there's virtually no way for believers to have a good feeling about this even if the actual bomber was caught and put in prison for life.
My prediction is that this will be much more friendly towards hte church than I think many are expecting.

I could be wrong, of course, but I don't expect this to really expose the church in the way that most people out of the church are expecting.

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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by wtfluff » Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:37 pm

Yobispo wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:34 pm
Corsair wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:06 pm
I generally think that most Mormons will consider this movie to be spiritual pornography. As interesting as it might be, there's virtually no way for believers to have a good feeling about this even if the actual bomber was caught and put in prison for life.
"spiritual pornography" - I hate that term. I hate that I used to use that term even more.
Hmmm...

Now that you mention it, I'm not sure I've actually heard, or at least paid attention to that term.

Truth is, I've never really believed in ghosts though. If I do happen to see a naked ghost, I'll be sure to give them the handshake test and let you folks know though...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Corsair
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by Corsair » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:09 pm

moksha wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:01 am
Corsair wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:06 pm
I generally think that most Mormons will consider this movie to be spiritual pornography. As interesting as it might be, there's virtually no way for believers to have a good feeling about this even if the actual bomber was caught and put in prison for life.
Do you think we will be warned against this as a Sacrament Meeting announcement?
The church would be most prudent to avoid saying a single thing about this publicly. It's kind of like how they have treated the new Gospel Topic Essays ;-)
jfro18 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:31 pm
My prediction is that this will be much more friendly towards hte church than I think many are expecting.

I could be wrong, of course, but I don't expect this to really expose the church in the way that most people out of the church are expecting.
I agree with you. I suspect that the documentary film makers are not interested in ticking off a presumably interested audience of Mormons so the LDS church will largely be the victim here. It's not hard to make Hoffmann the bad guy.

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2bizE
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by 2bizE » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:42 pm

I heard Mr. Oaks is planning on taking out a full page ad in the SL Tribune explaining how the salamander has an alternative meaning....wait...didn’t he do that already???
~2bizE

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2bizE
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by 2bizE » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:46 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 pm
moksha wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:15 am
It is probably time for a White Salamander statue to be placed in the Utah State Capitol, although the US Capitol could also stand to have this outstanding contribution from Utah as well. That statue could stand proudly with the statues of Martha Hughes Cannon (a Sister-Wife of George Q. Cannon) and Brigham Young. Although the White Salamander may not be a polygamist, it still represents many Utah qualities.
I love this idea. Let's also include a painting in the visitors center of this:
Image
Isn’t there a quote or two about the leaders of the church not leading us astray???
~2bizE

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blazerb
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by blazerb » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:08 am

2bizE wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:46 pm
Isn’t there a quote or two about the leaders of the church not leading us astray???
Yes, the church leaders cannot lead us astray, but they aren't perfect. Members just can't voice any public criticisms and avenues of private communication don't exist, but that doesn't mean they have to agree with everything the church leaders say. It's just that they can't tell anyone that they disagree, but blind obedience is recognized to be bad. Disobedience under any circumstances is inappropriate, though. Isn't it clear?

(I am hearing this in my head in a Brother Jake voice. He would have said it better.)

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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by wtfluff » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:59 am

2bizE wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:42 pm
I heard Mr. Oaks is planning on taking out a full page ad in the SL Tribune explaining how the salamander has an alternative meaning....wait...didn’t he do that already???
A few minutes of lame, fluffy Google-Fu and I am unable to find said ad on the inter-webs.

Anyone have a link?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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moksha
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by moksha » Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:07 pm

Peterson, who serves on the FARMS’ Board of Directors also didn’t tell his readers that FARMS was involved with promoting Hofmann’s forged documents. These scholars accepted the Salamander Letter as an authentic document, but they went much further. Although the Letter contained a devastating blow to the Mormon Church, FARMS scholars became apologists for it. They whitewashed its contents so that it would appear acceptable to the Mormon people. In a FARMS Update entitled Moses, Moroni, and the Salamander, we find the following:

Martin Harris’ letter [the Salamander Letter]...has dismayed some people. Harris talks of a “white salamander” which was “transfigured” into “the spirit” otherwise known to us as the Angel Moroni… as new research is showing, the salamander has been thought for millennia to have supernatural and extraordinary powers.

Obviously, much has changed culturally since 1830. Some of us may wince at the suggestion that an angel of God should be associated with, or described as, a salamander. But to people then, no image or description would better fit the appearance of a brilliant white spiritual being, once a valiant soldier, now dwelling in a blazing pillar of light, shockingly pure and glorious, speaking with the voice of God while flying through the midst of Heaven, than the salamander! Moroni should be flattered. Still, it was predictable that people would not understand this.

https://www.veneermagazine.com/01-18/01 ... olves.html
The White Salamander was held in such veneration by FARMS, that even today we can think of Dr. Louis Midgley as having the keen aspect of this same salamander.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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2bizE
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by 2bizE » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:18 am

wtfluff wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:59 am
2bizE wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:42 pm
I heard Mr. Oaks is planning on taking out a full page ad in the SL Tribune explaining how the salamander has an alternative meaning....wait...didn’t he do that already???
A few minutes of lame, fluffy Google-Fu and I am unable to find said ad on the inter-webs.

Anyone have a link?
My bad. I was thinking it was a newspaper article, but apparently it was in a few speeches.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... =post_body
~2bizE

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wtfluff
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by wtfluff » Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:36 pm

2bizE wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:18 am
My bad. I was thinking it was a newspaper article, but apparently it was in a few speeches.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... =post_body
Ah, good. I was a tiny bit afraid that too many tithing dollar$ had been spent on Search Engine Optimization and sent the salamander newspaper stuff into oblivion.

I did find that reddit thread in my searches. MORmON apologetics at it's finest!
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Hagoth
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by Hagoth » Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:37 pm

moksha wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:07 pm
The White Salamander was held in such veneration by FARMS, that even today we can think of Dr. Louis Midgley as having the keen aspect of this same salamander.
And, of course, Dallin Oaks was a valiant defender of the one-and-only-true White Salamander Letter. I wonder what he would have to say about it if asked today. Probably something along the lines of how he does not, nor ever did, condone conversion therapy for gay people :roll:
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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mooseman
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by mooseman » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:25 pm

having watched two of the three episodes....
IDK if most members will have huge issues with the series.
They mention that some in the church tried to make the Salamander letter work, but don't mention any leaders who did so. They even have Hinckley from the pulpit saying it "maybe a forgery" which one interviewee points out gleefully (though Hinckley does say it may have JS contemporaries and not actually written by Harris, but members will likely see this as faith affirming that he "knew" even if he couldn't put his finger on it)
Hoffman is shown as having an axe to grind, getting into anti literature on his mission with way more focus than the church covering it up documents and their involvement. They mention it passing as they talk to the cops, but it's brushed aside with apologetics just as fast without analyzing why the cops feel that way. Ultimately, if people don't have this already on their shelf, idk if it'll make it heavier.
156835335_442457153477768_4086215034771145648_n.jpg
156835335_442457153477768_4086215034771145648_n.jpg (77.31 KiB) Viewed 635 times
It's frustrating to see the last resort in a discussion of facts be: I disregard those facts because of my faith. Why even talk about facts if the last resort is to put faith above all facts that are contrary to your faith?

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wtfluff
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Re: Netflix doco - Murder amoung the Mormons

Post by wtfluff » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:59 pm

mooseman wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:25 pm
having watched two of the three episodes....
IDK if most members will have huge issues with the series.
Having binge-watched the entire series already... I'd agree. There are lots of what I would call dog-whistles for us non-believing type folks.

The only reason I can see some members having issues would be if they were like me, and lived through these events and literally ignored reality and knew next-to-nothing about the "ties" with Hofmann and LDS-Inc.

I'll probably watch it again. There are many tidbits in there that are new to me, even after my journey out of the alternate reality I was in as a believer.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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