New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

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Hagoth
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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by Hagoth » Sat May 08, 2021 4:46 pm

The biggest question about the witnesses is what did they really see?

David Whitmer later claimed that the angel"had no appearance or shape, " and was quoted as saying "Have you never had impressions? Then you had impressions as the Quaker when the spirit moves, or as a good Methodist in giving a happy experience, a feeling?" "Just so" (Early Mormon Documents, 1: 603-05).

If that, and some of the other reports about their testimonies accurate, then the Witness testimonies are absolutely worthless as evidence of anything.
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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by Lloyd Christmas » Sat May 08, 2021 6:21 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 4:46 pm
The biggest question about the witnesses is what did they really see?

David Whitmer later claimed that the angel"had no appearance or shape, " and was quoted as saying "Have you never had impressions? Then you had impressions as the Quaker when the spirit moves, or as a good Methodist in giving a happy experience, a feeling?" "Just so" (Early Mormon Documents, 1: 603-05).

If that, and some of the other reports about their testimonies accurate, then the Witness testimonies are absolutely worthless as evidence of anything.
That's the question, what did they see? I remember reading an account of the witnesses where one of them said they saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes" not their actual eyes. This sounds like they used their imaginations and faith, not saw an actual physical item.

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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by wtfluff » Sat May 08, 2021 8:21 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 4:46 pm
If that, and some of the other reports about their testimonies accurate, then the Witness testimonies are absolutely worthless as evidence of anything.
As I like to type all the time: Witness testimonies of source material that was never used in the creation of the BOM are basically useless.

Why didn't they testify of how awesome the magick rock in the hat was?
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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by moksha » Sat May 08, 2021 11:12 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 8:21 pm
Why didn't they testify of how awesome the magick rock in the hat was?
That could be the basis for a future movie from the Interpreter Institute.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Hagoth
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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by Hagoth » Sun May 09, 2021 6:13 am

wtfluff wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 8:21 pm
Why didn't they testify of how awesome the magick rock in the hat was?
The church never included rock talk as "testimony," even though Whitmer and Harris talked about it quite a bit. It was when Joseph stopped using the rock that Whitmer concluded that he had become a fallen prophet. To the witnesses, at least to Whitmer, the rock was the essential ingredient of being a seer. But when he says things like that we call him an apostate. The witnesses are a suitable-for-framing example of having your cake and eating it. Like what they say? God-inspired testimony. Don't like what they say? Apostate lies. :roll:
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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by blazerb » Sun May 09, 2021 6:55 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 4:46 pm
The biggest question about the witnesses is what did they really see?

David Whitmer later claimed that the angel"had no appearance or shape, " and was quoted as saying "Have you never had impressions? Then you had impressions as the Quaker when the spirit moves, or as a good Methodist in giving a happy experience, a feeling?" "Just so" (Early Mormon Documents, 1: 603-05).

If that, and some of the other reports about their testimonies accurate, then the Witness testimonies are absolutely worthless as evidence of anything.
Do you think the 3 witnesses saw anything at all? Or did JS just lead them in a group hypnosis session?

The 8 witnesses interest me. I wonder if JS brought out the plates in a bag or if they also were just convinced through suggestion that they were seeing something.

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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by jfro18 » Sun May 09, 2021 7:17 am

blazerb wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:55 am

Do you think the 3 witnesses saw anything at all? Or did JS just lead them in a group hypnosis session?

The 8 witnesses interest me. I wonder if JS brought out the plates in a bag or if they also were just convinced through suggestion that they were seeing something.
I tend to think of it as a group experience where Joseph was leading them into thinking they were seeing something, very much like he apparently had with Sidney Rigdon which is now D&C 76:
Joseph would, at intervals, say: "What do I see?" as one might say while looking out the window and beholding what all in the room could not see. Then he would relate what he had seen or what he was looking at. Then Sidney replied, "I see the same." Presently Sidney would say "what do I see?" and would repeat what he had seen or was seeing, and Joseph would reply, "I see the same."

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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by deacon blues » Sun May 09, 2021 9:19 am

The 3 Witnesses statements might be hearsay evidence as I understand it, since they originate out of court and not subject to cross examination.
Hearsay Defined
Hearsay is defined as an out of court statement, made in court, to prove the truth of the matter asserted. These out-of-court statements do not have to be spoken words, but they can also constitute documents or even body language. The rule against hearsay was designed to prevent gossip from being offered to convict someone.

I'm just posting this- I'm no lawyer. ;)
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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by blazerb » Sun May 09, 2021 9:30 am

jfro18 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 7:17 am
[I tend to think of it as a group experience where Joseph was leading them into thinking they were seeing something, very much like he apparently had with Sidney Rigdon which is now D&C 76:
Joseph would, at intervals, say: "What do I see?" as one might say while looking out the window and beholding what all in the room could not see. Then he would relate what he had seen or what he was looking at. Then Sidney replied, "I see the same." Presently Sidney would say "what do I see?" and would repeat what he had seen or was seeing, and Joseph would reply, "I see the same."
I think you're right. The Rigdon experience demonstrates what JS could do.

I should clarify, I believe that JS made a set of plates from tin or something like that. I think he used them to fool people by showing them while they were placed in a bag or otherwise hidden from sight but could be touched.

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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by Hagoth » Sun May 09, 2021 11:11 am

blazerb wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:55 am
Do you think the 3 witnesses saw anything at all? Or did JS just lead them in a group hypnosis session?
I should have said "saw." No I don't think they saw anything, except in a mental/revelatory sense, as Jfro described. Whitmer pretty much admitted that. Think about what they said outside of the actual witness document. Whitmer said he saw " a table with many records or plates upon it, besides the plates of the Book of Mormon, also the sword of Laban, the directors--i. e., the ball which Lehi had, and the interpreters." He also saw the plates of secret signs and combinations of the Gadianton robbers. Really? That's quite a grocery list.

I don't think Cowdery ever said anything about this kind of panoramic vision. Harris saw nothing at first and had to remove himself. Later Joseph caught up with him and, I believe, applied extreme emotional pressure until he got the response he needed from Harris. Harris finally exclaimed, “Tis enough, tis enough, mine eyes have beheld mine eyes have beheld.” So what what point did it cross over from not being not enough to being just enough to make this exclamation? Did he kinda see the angel? Did he have to close his eyes and focus really hard until he saw the angel? It sounds to me like someone saying, "ok, back off I see it now!"

I am reminded of a guy who was going around doing tent revivals in Texas when I was serving a mission there. He would call someone up and promise them they would see God. Then he would hold their head under water in a barrel repeatedly until eventually, sure enough, they saw God!
blazerb wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:55 am
The 8 witnesses interest me. I wonder if JS brought out the plates in a bag or if they also were just convinced through suggestion that they were seeing something.
We know they hefted something.

Stephen Burnett, a contemporary High Priest, said that Martin admitted he “had hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or a handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain.”(Stephen Burnett, April 15, 1838, in Joseph Smith Letter Book, p. 2).

Joseph’s brother William and others claimed to have “seen” them, always while stored in a box or wrapped in a cloth (Gold Plates and Printer’s Ink, Ensign, September, 1976)

I can't help but wonder about the ancient characters mentioned in the testimony document. Did they actually see them ON the plates, or did they see them transcribed FROM the plates onto paper? Here, heft this, now look at the characters I copied from the plates. Or was it a combination of lifting a heavy, wrapped object and closing your eyes to see the details in your mind's (i.e. spiritual) eye?
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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by wtfluff » Sun May 09, 2021 4:22 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 11:11 am
...
only as he saw a city through a mountain.”(Stephen Burnett, April 15, 1838, in Joseph Smith Letter Book, p. 2).
...
I'm really looking forward to how they produce this "seeing through a mountain" in the movie with today's special effects. ;)
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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by Palerider » Sun May 09, 2021 5:01 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 11:11 am
blazerb wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:55 am
Do you think the 3 witnesses saw anything at all? Or did JS just lead them in a group hypnosis session?
I should have said "saw." No I don't think they saw anything, except in a mental/revelatory sense, as Jfro described. Whitmer pretty much admitted that. Think about what they said outside of the actual witness document. Whitmer said he saw " a table with many records or plates upon it, besides the plates of the Book of Mormon, also the sword of Laban, the directors--i. e., the ball which Lehi had, and the interpreters." He also saw the plates of secret signs and combinations of the Gadianton robbers. Really? That's quite a grocery list.

I don't think Cowdery ever said anything about this kind of panoramic vision. Harris saw nothing at first and had to remove himself. Later Joseph caught up with him and, I believe, applied extreme emotional pressure until he got the response he needed from Harris. Harris finally exclaimed, “Tis enough, tis enough, mine eyes have beheld mine eyes have beheld.” So what what point did it cross over from not being not enough to being just enough to make this exclamation? Did he kinda see the angel? Did he have to close his eyes and focus really hard until he saw the angel? It sounds to me like someone saying, "ok, back off I see it now!"

I am reminded of a guy who was going around doing tent revivals in Texas when I was serving a mission there. He would call someone up and promise them they would see God. Then he would hold their head under water in a barrel repeatedly until eventually, sure enough, they saw God!
blazerb wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:55 am
The 8 witnesses interest me. I wonder if JS brought out the plates in a bag or if they also were just convinced through suggestion that they were seeing something.
We know they hefted something.

Stephen Burnett, a contemporary High Priest, said that Martin admitted he “had hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or a handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain.”(Stephen Burnett, April 15, 1838, in Joseph Smith Letter Book, p. 2).

Joseph’s brother William and others claimed to have “seen” them, always while stored in a box or wrapped in a cloth (Gold Plates and Printer’s Ink, Ensign, September, 1976)

I can't help but wonder about the ancient characters mentioned in the testimony document. Did they actually see them ON the plates, or did they see them transcribed FROM the plates onto paper? Here, heft this, now look at the characters I copied from the plates. Or was it a combination of lifting a heavy, wrapped object and closing your eyes to see the details in your mind's (i.e. spiritual) eye?
As I recall the eight witnesses did not see the plates altogether at one time. There were 3 or 4 one time and then 5 or so another time. Another example of where church illustrations have been less than honest.

Also, they never saw the actual plates. Only the form underneath the towe cloth. Joseph's father apparently put his hand to remove the cloth whereupon Joseph told him "No", the angel forbade that anyone should look directly on the plates or Joseph would be struck dead. :roll:
According to Burnett's letter the eight witnesses when shown the contents of the "testimony" document were quite hesitant to sign it and were persuaded under duress.
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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by Hagoth » Sun May 09, 2021 6:00 pm

"Because God will kill you (or me)" is a very convenient and all-purpose excuse.

Why do you have to marry my teenage daughter? "Because God will kill me if I don't."

I think they should keep using it. Why can't I see the churches financial records? "Because God will kill you."

"Brother Hagoth, it's your turn to scrub the church toilets. God will kill you of you don't."
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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by Palerider » Sun May 09, 2021 6:15 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:00 pm
"Because God will kill you (or me)" is a very convenient and all-purpose excuse.

Why do you have to marry my teenage daughter? "Because God will kill me if I don't."

I think they should keep using it. Why can't I see the churches financial records? "Because God will kill you."

"Brother Hagoth, it's your turn to scrub the church toilets. God will kill you of you don't."

Or..... I'd like to see what you have hidden in the First Presidency vault.

"Oh....you do have a death wish, don't you." :evil:
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by moksha » Sun May 09, 2021 7:05 pm

When you lift covered plates that seem too incredibly light for gold, try using your spiritual hands.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by hmb » Mon May 10, 2021 4:37 am

Exiled wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:47 am

The trouble I see with the witnesses is that eye witness testimony is unreliable. People can be duped by magicians into believing they saw something when they really didn't. Martin Harris claimed to have spoken to Jesus in the form of a deer. He was a witness to the vorhee plates, too. Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer wanted to be leaders in the church and were running things in Missouri for a time. They weren't going to say all of a sudden that it was a hoax when their power depended on it. Also, recanting has a cost associated with it. People duped based on false witness testimony tend to get mad and reputations suffer as a result. The safe route is to remain true to the false nonsense because admitting to the lie would be a lot worse.
It doesn't matter how crazy a witness may be. It's not a lot different than today's political mess with so many falling for crazy conspiracy theories and out right lies. People pushing crap, for the sake of power, create a weird culture of believers. I used to think it was the uneducated, ignorant people, but it includes many, other wise intelligent people too. The church has a following. Followers will follow. Doubters will doubt their own doubts (until some don't). Duped is duped, regardless of the crazy.

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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by Corsair » Mon May 10, 2021 2:12 pm

Let me recommend Mormon Stories 1388: RECREATING THE BOOK OF MORMON PLATES WITH TRENT TOLD.

One of the most unusual parts of this interview is that it's only 20 minutes long so this may be the shortest interview that John Dehlin ever conducted.

Trent Told is no scholar. He owns a company that does duct work for heating and AC. So he just picked up some scrap metal at his shop and recreated the "gold plates" out of tin using tools that would have existed in 1829. He certainly has skills in this area and he was able to make a replica model of the Book of Mormon plates out of tin. He said it only took an hour or two using scrap he had.

Put these under a cloth or in a box and add in some sheets of heavier metal like lead or copper and you can easily recreate what Joseph claimed to have. It's not proof, but it's entirely in the realm of plausible.

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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by Just This Guy » Tue May 11, 2021 6:42 am

I listened to that when it came out.

One thing that was interesting is that he states that making the plates is fast and easy. The time consuming part is making engravings of "writing" on the metal. He theorized that could be the reason behind the sealed portion. If you are faking something and up against a deadline, then use the plates you have engraved and then just steal a bunch together to bulk up the overall appearance without the work of engraving all of them.

One question I have is how hard would it be in the time to make sheet metal like tin appear to be gold? Is there a way to plate them in a way that looks reasonably convincing?
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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by alas » Tue May 11, 2021 9:22 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 6:42 am
I listened to that when it came out.

One thing that was interesting is that he states that making the plates is fast and easy. The time consuming part is making engravings of "writing" on the metal. He theorized that could be the reason behind the sealed portion. If you are faking something and up against a deadline, then use the plates you have engraved and then just steal a bunch together to bulk up the overall appearance without the work of engraving all of them.

One question I have is how hard would it be in the time to make sheet metal like tin appear to be gold? Is there a way to plate them in a way that looks reasonably convincing?
Did anyone actually see the plates with their physical eyes? All I have ever heard is “felt them through a cloth” or “hefted them in a box with a cover”. So, sounds to me like it wouldn’t have mattered if they looked like tin. Because if nobody actually saw them, they they didn’t need to look like gold.

Some “enemies” broke into his place once after they heard he was keeping the plates in a wooden box at his home. They found a box, and busted it open to find it contained sand. So, Joseph claimed he knew they were up to evil, so he hid the plates somewhere else and filled the box they had been in with sand. Yeah, sure. So, we know that at one point he had a box of sand that he was claiming was a box containing the plates. That was probably what people hefted, and sure enough the box was heavy.

But Emma claimed to move them while dusting and she said she kind of felt them through the cloth and rifled the pages, and said they sounded like metal. She didn’t describe anything very heavy. So, that could have been a tin replica. But she did not claim to have ever seen them without them being covered with a cloth. If he had them painted gold, he would have shown that gold color off. So, it sounds to me like he made a tin replica that looked like tin, so he let people feel through the cloth, without ever seeing the color of what they were feeling.

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Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by jfro18 » Tue May 11, 2021 9:57 am

alas wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:22 am

Did anyone actually see the plates with their physical eyes? All I have ever heard is “felt them through a cloth” or “hefted them in a box with a cover”. So, sounds to me like it wouldn’t have mattered if they looked like tin. Because if nobody actually saw them, they they didn’t need to look like gold.

Some “enemies” broke into his place once after they heard he was keeping the plates in a wooden box at his home. They found a box, and busted it open to find it contained sand. So, Joseph claimed he knew they were up to evil, so he hid the plates somewhere else and filled the box they had been in with sand. Yeah, sure. So, we know that at one point he had a box of sand that he was claiming was a box containing the plates. That was probably what people hefted, and sure enough the box was heavy.
From an apologetic standpoint, yes they saw them with their physical eyes because you can read the testimonies that way. It's why the witnesses are used so much by the church as a fallback for a testimony, because the statements can be taken however you want. If you're a believer you can cherry pick where they say they saw physical plates, and as a critic you can point out how completely screwed up the testimonies are and how they can be proven inaccurate against the other accounts.

And I believe that the story about the sand in the box is one that apologists say is from an antagonistic source and can't be trusted, which as a believer you go "oh yeah it's an anti-Mormon trying to undercut Joseph Smith" and walk away.

I think the Witnesses movie is going to have *just enough* critical arguments against the witnesses so they can claim they cover both sides, but it will be done in the same way that Face-to-Face events are done where you just pick the ones that are easiest to refute while leaving the real problems on the cutting room floor.

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