New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
User avatar
alas
Posts: 2357
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by alas » Tue May 11, 2021 12:39 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:57 am
alas wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:22 am

Did anyone actually see the plates with their physical eyes? All I have ever heard is “felt them through a cloth” or “hefted them in a box with a cover”. So, sounds to me like it wouldn’t have mattered if they looked like tin. Because if nobody actually saw them, they they didn’t need to look like gold.

Some “enemies” broke into his place once after they heard he was keeping the plates in a wooden box at his home. They found a box, and busted it open to find it contained sand. So, Joseph claimed he knew they were up to evil, so he hid the plates somewhere else and filled the box they had been in with sand. Yeah, sure. So, we know that at one point he had a box of sand that he was claiming was a box containing the plates. That was probably what people hefted, and sure enough the box was heavy.
From an apologetic standpoint, yes they saw them with their physical eyes because you can read the testimonies that way. It's why the witnesses are used so much by the church as a fallback for a testimony, because the statements can be taken however you want. If you're a believer you can cherry pick where they say they saw physical plates, and as a critic you can point out how completely screwed up the testimonies are and how they can be proven inaccurate against the other accounts.

And I believe that the story about the sand in the box is one that apologists say is from an antagonistic source and can't be trusted, which as a believer you go "oh yeah it's an anti-Mormon trying to undercut Joseph Smith" and walk away.

I think the Witnesses movie is going to have *just enough* critical arguments against the witnesses so they can claim they cover both sides, but it will be done in the same way that Face-to-Face events are done where you just pick the ones that are easiest to refute while leaving the real problems on the cutting room floor.
The difference between us here and the church is that we are trying to figure out what really happened, that look behind the curtain, while the church doesn’t care what really happened, they just want to pretend that their illusion is the truth. So, while I am looking for a logical explanation for what made my ancestors fall for this con, the church is perpetuating the con.

User avatar
jfro18
Posts: 2064
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by jfro18 » Tue May 11, 2021 2:02 pm

alas wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 12:39 pm
The difference between us here and the church is that we are trying to figure out what really happened, that look behind the curtain, while the church doesn’t care what really happened, they just want to pretend that their illusion is the truth. So, while I am looking for a logical explanation for what made my ancestors fall for this con, the church is perpetuating the con.
100%. And when I try to explain it that way to believing members (and DW), I get told that I'm biased and I don't care about anything but tearing down the church. So in a lot of ways what the church does is really effective... until it isn't.

User avatar
Stig
Posts: 301
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:15 pm

Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by Stig » Wed May 12, 2021 1:31 pm

This entire production is a vanity project for Daniel Peterson; he's spent a good chunk of the last couple of years trying to raise funds for the production of this movie. All of this, for what purpose? Showing these stories in a movie form will surely leave out details from all the written accounts (especially from conflicting statements made by the various witnesses). Is it meant to be a bolster to the testimonies of true believers? It hardly seems necessary to do a full-blown motion picture production to accomplish that goal. Hell, we used to "feel" the Spirit(TM) with static pictures from filmstrip projectors. Is it meant to be used as a missionary tool? It's not difficult to imagine that the film will be approached with all of the skepticism also applied to Battlefield Earth, but with smaller box office receipts. I can foresee nothing coming from this other than stroking the egos of its backers and provide some warm fuzzy feelings to a small audience of true believers who will never go below the surface of their own shallow testimonies of the so-called Restoration.
“Some say he’s wanted by the CIA and that he sleeps upside down like a Bat. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

“Some say that he lives in a tree, and that his sweat can be used to clean precious metals. All we know is he’s called the Stig.”

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by moksha » Wed May 12, 2021 11:35 pm

It would be interesting if the experimental psychologists at BYU could take some of those penile meters from the Wilkenson/Oaks era of gay therapy, apply them to some RM-Elders and have them watch Witnesses. That could help identify where the next generation of apologists will come from.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

hmb
Posts: 452
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:43 am

Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by hmb » Thu May 13, 2021 4:54 am

Stig wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:31 pm
This entire production is a vanity project for Daniel Peterson; he's spent a good chunk of the last couple of years trying to raise funds for the production of this movie. All of this, for what purpose?
A purpose may be to gain a wider audience. We live in a "YouTube" generation. Few really want to read; it's easier to watch. I'm guilty as well. I was always a weak reader, but I plugged away at text. (I'm so happy my college was pre-Internet.) If I can watch my news, watch someone give me directions, cook something (haha), I will turn to the Internet. Most movies suck compared to books, but they are just a lot easier and faster. It's easier to get families/individuals to watch than study/research. It was much more engaging, with kids, to plug in Book of Mormon cartoon videos than read the Book of Mormon. (Lazy learner)

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7075
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by Hagoth » Thu May 13, 2021 5:58 am

jfro18 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:57 am
And I believe that the story about the sand in the box is one that apologists say is from an antagonistic source and can't be trusted, which as a believer you go "oh yeah it's an anti-Mormon trying to undercut Joseph Smith" and walk away.
I took this picture at the church history museum. This is the actual box and a replica of the plates based on Joseph's stated dimensions. Anybody see a problem?
PlatesAndBoxsm.jpg
PlatesAndBoxsm.jpg (206.58 KiB) Viewed 2286 times
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by moksha » Thu May 13, 2021 11:55 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 5:58 am
Anybody see a problem?
The box actually containing plates?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7075
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: New Apologetic Movie: Witnesses

Post by Hagoth » Sat May 15, 2021 5:40 am

I think the museum should have an interactive activity for the kids. Have a general authority tell them some stories about his personal visits with an angel. Have him show them a pillow case wrapped around what he claims is a box of gold plates given to him by the angel. Tell them they'll get a treat if they correctly identify it as gold plates. Let them heft the pillowcase, and then ask them what was in it. How many will guess correctly that it's a box of bricks? Eight kids per session but only one conclusion, recorded and signed by someone besides the kids.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 40 guests