Fiona Givens and BYU

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Arcturus
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Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by Arcturus » Sat May 08, 2021 3:42 pm

Allegedly Fiona Givens' official relationship with BYU was terminated. It's lightly discussed in this article but no real info is provided. Can you anyone confirm whether this is true, and provide more info?

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/05 ... UNfwfM2T10
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Hagoth
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by Hagoth » Sat May 08, 2021 4:38 pm

My wife told me about this. If the Maxwell Institute has turned on her it could be an interesting insight into a potential wave apologist in-fighting. We've already seen a little bit of this with Daniel Petersen and John Gee. When I attended a fireside with Fiona the thing that jumped out at me was that she made a disparaging remark (more of a verbal eye-roll) about General Authorities. I have a feeling she could talk all she wants about Heavenly Mother, but if she is being pounced on I suspect it has more to do with inadequate leader worship. But who knows?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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alas
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by alas » Sat May 08, 2021 6:25 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 4:38 pm
My wife told me about this. If the Maxwell Institute has turned on her it could be an interesting insight into a potential wave apologist in-fighting. We've already seen a little bit of this with Daniel Petersen and John Gee. When I attended a fireside with Fiona the thing that jumped out at me was that she made a disparaging remark (more of a verbal eye-roll) about General Authorities. I have a feeling she could talk all she wants about Heavenly Mother, but if she is being pounced on I suspect it has more to do with inadequate leader worship. But who knows?
No, she suggested that the Holy Spirit or HolyGhost might be Heavenly Mother, and women have been excommunicated for such suggestions. But, if you know what you are studying when studying the Bible, the Holy Spirit is identified as Shekanah (various spellings and I have no idea which one would be correct, because it would have been in Hebrew anyway) and as Wisdom, and as God’s wife, or consort, which is a wife of lower rank, so, the king’s wife would be his consort...or the queen’s husband. So, Biblically she is correct and BK Packer who pounded the pulpit practically yelling that the Holy Ghost is MALE, is wrong.

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2bizE
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by 2bizE » Sat May 08, 2021 6:46 pm

This could lead to some interesting challenges in the future. This could also drag her husband into the ring to fight. Do you think her husband will continue with his stance/position with the church since Fiona has been censured? Will both of them crawl away with their tails between their legs, or put up a fight? I hope for a fight.
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moksha
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by moksha » Sat May 08, 2021 11:30 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 4:38 pm
I have a feeling she could talk all she wants about Heavenly Mother, but if she is being pounced on I suspect it has more to do with inadequate leader worship. But who knows?
Inadequate leader worship at BYU or among the Brethern? I am also guessing there is fear that Heavenly Mother talk will loosen the chokehold the Melchizedek Priesthood has on LDS women.

I think the Unwritten Rules on page 58 specifies that one orange crate pedestal is accorded for each key of the priesthood held. One for a newly minted elder up to the lofty height of President Nelson. Even the most accomplished woman remains at ground level.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Hagoth
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by Hagoth » Sun May 09, 2021 6:05 am

moksha wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:30 pm
Even the most accomplished woman remains at ground level.
Which The Priesthood somehow continues to misidentify as a pedestal.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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blazerb
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by blazerb » Sun May 09, 2021 6:13 am

"And thus we see that the [church] will not support [its] children at the last day," to paraphrase Alma 30:60. I heard rumors that the leadership privately went after Hugh Nibley for having the audacity to believe he could teach doctrine. How much quicker would they go after a progressive woman who started drawing her own conclusions about Godhood. She was supposed to learn from Janice Allred's example. Obviously the Givens have friends in the leadership. Maybe she thought that would protect her, and she was allowed to say what conclusions she drew.

When Patrick Mason starts talking about how "we" still have a lot to learn about the restoration, I wonder if he sees it the same was as the leadership. They will be happy to embrace the doctrine propounded by its members, but it has to happen in a way that makes it look like the Q15 are the ones with inspiration.

Finally, I wonder if this was also intended to be a shot across the bow for the other progressive apologists. I wonder if Spencer Fluhman has been given his orders and will order affairs at the Maxwell Institute accordingly.

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jfro18
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by jfro18 » Sun May 09, 2021 7:12 am

2bizE wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 6:46 pm
This could lead to some interesting challenges in the future. This could also drag her husband into the ring to fight. Do you think her husband will continue with his stance/position with the church since Fiona has been censured? Will both of them crawl away with their tails between their legs, or put up a fight? I hope for a fight.
This is their career, so I have a feeling they will continue on trying in their own way to help the church in order to maintain that book/talk/fireside income.

One thing that's funny about Fiona Givens and BYU is that a large push within BYU to get rid of ANY signs of progressive members/apologetics is starting from the grassroots level and they are trying to report any teacher that goes outside of correlated material.

That's not to say leadership will just rubberstamp those complaints, but there are a lot of DezNat type students/staff/etc that are trying to put a giant spotlight on anyone that goes outside of the tightly correlated material right now.

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deacon blues
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by deacon blues » Sun May 09, 2021 7:58 am

moksha wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:30 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 4:38 pm
I have a feeling she could talk all she wants about Heavenly Mother, but if she is being pounced on I suspect it has more to do with inadequate leader worship. But who knows?
Inadequate leader worship at BYU or among the Brethern? I am also guessing there is fear that Heavenly Mother talk will loosen the chokehold the Melchizedek Priesthood has on LDS women.

I think the Unwritten Rules on page 58 specifies that one orange crate pedestal is accorded for each key of the priesthood held. One for a newly minted elder up to the lofty height of President Nelson. Even the most accomplished woman remains at ground level.
This. Ms. Givens has a track record of submission so I doubt that the brethren have much to fear about her going off the rails of the Church and exploring a reasonable, consistent belief in Heavenly Mother.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

20/20hind
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by 20/20hind » Sun May 09, 2021 5:37 pm

I think the dont talk about because there could be many heavily mothers, because it is highly likely that god is a polygamist. Can you imagine one woman producing that many spirit children?

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alas
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by alas » Sun May 09, 2021 8:11 pm

20/20hind wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 5:37 pm
I think the dont talk about because there could be many heavily mothers, because it is highly likely that god is a polygamist. Can you imagine one woman producing that many spirit children?
I am sure that spirit children would not be produced like physical children. We have no concept of what spiritual bodies even are, so why do we imagine that one woman couldn’t produce just as many as a man could. We are stuck in our world view of nine month pregnancies and babies produced one at a time. That is for earthly physical bodies, not spirits.

And why do we think women want THAT for heaven. For one thing, if women have to spend eternity pregnant, zero women are going to want that as heaven. There would be mass rebellion by women. Such as, “excuse me, but I want to go to that TK smoothly place.” Being eternally pregnant sounds like hell. If spirit children are not mass produced in a factory, but we use the same sexual reproduction as we do on earth, yup, sounds good to the men cause they get sex and don’t pay the cost of pregnancy. So, you guys can have your CK but the females will opt out and leave y’all to be pregnant. Or maybe that is how “the last shall be first” and the men shall be women. The whole idea of polygamy and eternal pregnancy after pregnancy after pregnancy would be most women’s worst nightmare, so, yeah, I don’t think so.

So, one mother in heaven and test tube babies mass produced in a factory.

20/20hind
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by 20/20hind » Sun May 09, 2021 8:38 pm

The early church leaders use to teach that god and jesus where polygamists to justify it.

I think satan had a few extra wives also.

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Yobispo
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by Yobispo » Mon May 10, 2021 9:20 am

My barely relevant Givens/Fluhman story ---

I attended one of those private firesides in the Bay Area back in 2014-2015 where the Givens spoke with Spencer Fluhman, the current Exec Director of the Maxwell Institute. Most of Fiona's talk was about finding Mother in Heaven in literature and the scriptures. Near the end she enthusiastically said "She's coming back!" This was a room full of NOM's, supporters of this idea, and you could feel the excitement.

Fluhman gave an impassioned speech about truth and honesty around church history. He read a long letter that he wrote to his Dept. head after his umpteenth phone call with the parent of a student who had gone down the rabbit hole and lost their testimony. In his letter he begged the Dept to embrace church history, be honest with the students and stop the exodus of young people who are discovering the history online and leaving out of a sense of betrayal (like me). My take on his talk was that he was sincere and very well read on the history. So I stood up and asked a question like: "After learning all of this history and seeing the lies, how am I supposed to trust the leaders of the church?"

Fluhman's answer to my question was kind in that he acknowledged my anger and feelings of being misled. Then he threaded the needle of supporting the brethren while trying to open up dialogue on the member-level. It was the "change from within" model. I was disappointed because I wanted pitchforks and torches, but I see where he comes from.

The final speaker was T Givens, and all I remember was more talk of changing from within. He was very positive on LGBT issues, but still never dared cross the leaders. The most forceful thing he said was that if we wanted to see change we'd better fulfill callings and do our home teaching or we'd never be taken seriously. Not 5 minutes later he mentioned that he & Fiona didn't hold callings in their ward because of their demanding travel/fireside schedule.

My takeaway from all of this was that all 3 of them were sincere, smart and way too wishy-washy to ever get anything done. My prediction is that the Givens will not press the issue of Fiona's dismissal and they'll quietly do their thing just enough to make a few bucks but not get ex'd.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon May 10, 2021 9:23 am

Hang on a sec - apparently Fiona wasn't canned by the Maxwell folks, she just left voluntarily to "focus on her own study, writing and other personal endeavors."

https://faithmatters.org/statement-from ... na-givens/

Nothing to see here, folks, nothing to see.

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"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon May 10, 2021 9:28 am

Yobispo wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 9:20 am
My takeaway from all of this was that all 3 of them were sincere, smart and way too wishy-washy to ever get anything done. My prediction is that the Givens will not press the issue of Fiona's dismissal and they'll quietly do their thing just enough to make a few bucks but not get ex'd.
I think this part is key - whether or not Fiona was "dismissed" or "quit" or just "left," is an irrelevant question. I think the Givens are very smart, and won't tie themselves to something they don't agree with, but still be able to publish their books to a dwindling ProgMo audience.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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jfro18
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by jfro18 » Mon May 10, 2021 9:50 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 9:23 am
Hang on a sec - apparently Fiona wasn't canned by the Maxwell folks, she just left voluntarily to "focus on her own study, writing and other personal endeavors."

https://faithmatters.org/statement-from ... na-givens/

Nothing to see here, folks, nothing to see.

Image
This feels like when someone is axed politically, but they said it was a voluntary split so that they can continue to have a career while also knowing that they are still beholden to those above them.

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Hagoth
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by Hagoth » Mon May 10, 2021 1:18 pm

alas wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:11 pm
20/20hind wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 5:37 pm
I think the dont talk about because there could be many heavily mothers, because it is highly likely that god is a polygamist. Can you imagine one woman producing that many spirit children?
I am sure that spirit children would not be produced like physical children. We have no concept of what spiritual bodies even are, so why do we imagine that one woman couldn’t produce just as many as a man could. We are stuck in our world view of nine month pregnancies and babies produced one at a time. That is for earthly physical bodies, not spirits.

And why do we think women want THAT for heaven. For one thing, if women have to spend eternity pregnant, zero women are going to want that as heaven. There would be mass rebellion by women. Such as, “excuse me, but I want to go to that TK smoothly place.” Being eternally pregnant sounds like hell. If spirit children are not mass produced in a factory, but we use the same sexual reproduction as we do on earth, yup, sounds good to the men cause they get sex and don’t pay the cost of pregnancy. So, you guys can have your CK but the females will opt out and leave y’all to be pregnant. Or maybe that is how “the last shall be first” and the men shall be women. The whole idea of polygamy and eternal pregnancy after pregnancy after pregnancy would be most women’s worst nightmare, so, yeah, I don’t think so.

So, one mother in heaven and test tube babies mass produced in a factory.
In Mormonism's eternity Gods and Godesses are very different organisms. More like cowboys and cows.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by hmb » Tue May 11, 2021 5:18 am

alas wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:11 pm

So, one mother in heaven and test tube babies mass produced in a factory.
Would that be "A little factory?"

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alas
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by alas » Tue May 11, 2021 9:26 am

hmb wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 5:18 am
alas wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:11 pm

So, one mother in heaven and test tube babies mass produced in a factory.
Would that be "A little factory?"
no, this would have to be a big factory. The guy has the little factory. She just uses his product in her much larger factory. Bigger end product needs a bigger factory

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2bizE
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Re: Fiona Givens and BYU

Post by 2bizE » Tue May 11, 2021 2:04 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 9:28 am
Yobispo wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 9:20 am
My takeaway from all of this was that all 3 of them were sincere, smart and way too wishy-washy to ever get anything done. My prediction is that the Givens will not press the issue of Fiona's dismissal and they'll quietly do their thing just enough to make a few bucks but not get ex'd.
I think this part is key - whether or not Fiona was "dismissed" or "quit" or just "left," is an irrelevant question. I think the Givens are very smart, and won't tie themselves to something they don't agree with, but still be able to publish their books to a dwindling ProgMo audience.
Is the progressive Mormon audience declining?
~2bizE

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