Dating the First Vision

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Palerider
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Dating the First Vision

Post by Palerider » Sun May 09, 2021 8:22 pm

The following is an abbreviated excerpt from William Smith's history of his brother Joseph written in 1883. At the time, I believe William was affiliated with the reorganized church and claims no connection whatsoever with the Utah church.

The interesting things are the dates and age of Joseph regarding the religious upheaval and his first vision. Special attention should be given to William's description of the "angel" who visited with Joseph in the Grove. This description matches much more closely with Joseph's early renderings of his first vision experience.

William Smith:

"In 1822 and 1823, the people in our neighborhood were very much stirred up with regard to religious matters by the preaching of a Mr. Lane, an Elder of the Methodist Church, and celebrated throughout the country as a "great revival preacher".

Joseph, then about seventeen years of age, had become seriously inclined, though not "brought out," as the phrase was, began to reflect and inquire, which of all these sects was right....

All this however was beneficial to him, as it urged him forward, and strengthened him in the determination to know for himself of the certainty and reality of pure and holy religion. He continued in secret to call upon the Lord for a full manifestation of his will, the assurance that he was accepted of him, and that he might have an understanding of the path of obedience.

At length he determined to call upon the Lord until he should get a manifestation from him. He accordingly went out into the woods and falling upon his knees called for a long time upon the Lord for wisdom and knowledge. While engaged in prayer a light appeared in the heavens, and descended until it rested upon the trees where he was. It appeared like fire. But to his great astonishment, did not burn the trees. An angel then appeared to him and conversed with him upon many things. He told him that none of the sects were right; but that if he was faithful in keeping the commandments he should receive, the true way should be made known to him; that his sins were forgiven, etc. A more elaborate and accurate description of his vision, however, will be found in his own history....

The next day I was at work in the field together with Joseph and my eldest brother Alvin. Joseph looked pale and unwell, so that Alvin told him if he was sick he need not work; he then went and sat down by the fence, when the angel again appeared to him, and told him to call his father's house together and communicate to them the visions he had received....."

Although William does mention that a more elaborate description of Joseph's first vision could be found in his own history, I doubt that such significant differences would be found considering how long William had been aquatinted with the story. It seems the canonized version looks to be more and more the evolved oddity than the truth.

http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1883Wilm.htm
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"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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jfro18
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Re: Dating the First Vision

Post by jfro18 » Mon May 10, 2021 8:46 am

I believe in the past I've heard many apologists just say that it was easy to get the dates mixed up and leave it at that.

The First Vision is such a mess - there's a Gospel Tangents series with church-employed historian Stephen Harper that has caused some controversy because Harper has a new book out defending the FV and in these clips he shows that a lot of his personal bias is coloring the facts. Dan Vogel wrote some lengthy critiques on the Gospel Tangents FB page which covered the dating of the revivals around JS.

The reality is that the First Visions problems go so far beyond the accounts themselves because of the other surrounding elements that were also changed, but then on top of that everyone around Joseph has differing stories which would indicate that Joseph couldn't keep it straight either.

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Hagoth
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Re: Dating the First Vision

Post by Hagoth » Mon May 10, 2021 1:31 pm

In one of Oliver Cowdery's letters to W. W. Phelps he mentions Joseph's age when he first saw the angel, and then in a later letter he corrects himself and states that Joseph told him to backdate the event to a year earlier. Other things, like the timing of the revival sermons also support the idea that the First Vision could not have happened when Joseph was 14. It appears that Joseph was actively pushing the timeline back, but I don't understand his motive for doing so.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Dating the First Vision

Post by jfro18 » Mon May 10, 2021 2:08 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:31 pm
In one of Oliver Cowdery's letters to W. W. Phelps he mentions Joseph's age when he first saw the angel, and then in a later letter he corrects himself and states that Joseph told him to backdate the event to a year earlier. Other things, like the timing of the revival sermons also support the idea that the First Vision could not have happened when Joseph was 14. It appears that Joseph was actively pushing the timeline back, but I don't understand his motive for doing so.
I think the motive was because it needed to happen before Moroni visited him about the plates, which was 1823. So he needed it to be before 1823, and I guess 1820 seemed to fit?

But yeah it seems like in this case he was probably creating unnecessary problems for himself.

Hagoth did you listen to Steven Harper's segments with Rick Bennett and Gospel Tangents? I have them downloaded to listen to next time I work, but Dan Vogel picked it apart pretty good on Facebook... Harper works very hard to find anything that could be evidence of an 1820 revival and changes a lot of elements to fit the square peg into a circle hole.

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Hagoth
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Re: Dating the First Vision

Post by Hagoth » Tue May 11, 2021 6:17 am

jfro18 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:08 pm
Hagoth did you listen to Steven Harper's segments with Rick Bennett and Gospel Tangents? I have them downloaded to listen to next time I work, but Dan Vogel picked it apart pretty good on Facebook... Harper works very hard to find anything that could be evidence of an 1820 revival and changes a lot of elements to fit the square peg into a circle hole.
I haven't listened to it. I feel exhausted just thinking about it. How much energy has been expended over the years layering on preemptive bandaids to avoid getting nicked by Occams razor?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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nibbler
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Re: Dating the First Vision

Post by nibbler » Fri May 14, 2021 6:14 am

Joseph Smith never dated the first vision. He skipped straight to the marriage proposal.
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
– Anais Nin

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moksha
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Re: Dating the First Vision

Post by moksha » Sat May 15, 2021 12:06 am

nibbler wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:14 am
Joseph Smith never dated the first vision. He skipped straight to the marriage proposal.
Proposals, since he had multiple first visions.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Dating the First Vision

Post by Hagoth » Sat May 15, 2021 5:46 am

moksha wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 12:06 am
nibbler wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:14 am
Joseph Smith never dated the first vision. He skipped straight to the marriage proposal.
Proposals, since he had multiple first visions.
He couldn't commit to just one because, you know, angel with sword.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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