Angeles and Plates

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1smartdodog
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Angeles and Plates

Post by 1smartdodog » Fri May 28, 2021 11:06 am

I heard someplace if you can make Angles and Gold Plates work everything else comes naturally.

Makes sense that belief in one supernatural event opens your your brain to all sorts of other zany ideas.

Its like being a conspiracy theorist, you see them everywhere.


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“Five percent of the people think; ten percent of the people think they think; and the other eighty-five percent would rather die than think.”
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alas
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Re: Angeles and Plates

Post by alas » Fri May 28, 2021 12:09 pm

1smartdodog wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 11:06 am
I heard someplace if you can make Angles and Gold Plates work everything else comes naturally.

Makes sense that belief in one supernatural event opens your your brain to all sorts of other zany ideas.

Its like being a conspiracy theorist, you see them everywhere.


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I think it also takes making Joseph Smith work. As a kid, I could believe in the angel and the gold plates, but there was something creepy about Joseph. I couldn’t explain why I just couldn’t believe that he was telling the truth, but it was like I smelled a liar and I just never could make his personality work as prophet.

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deacon blues
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Re: Angeles and Plates

Post by deacon blues » Fri May 28, 2021 6:40 pm

I agree. Joseph as a prophet who intentionally and repeatedly lies, manipulates followers, pulls polygamy and Zion in Independence, and the Book of Abraham out of his— uh, out his hat and is SO arrogant that he could say “nobody (not even Jesus?!) held a Church together— that is the thing I can’t make work.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Hagoth
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Re: Angeles and Plates

Post by Hagoth » Fri May 28, 2021 7:33 pm

I think angels and plates is a great place to draw the line for orthodox thinking. If the angels and plates are real, you have to accept Joseph as a prophet, whether you like him or not. Kind of like if you believe in the Old Testament you have to accept a jealous, tantrum-throwing, narcissistic, smite-happy vengeful (but loving!) God who ultimately only cares about how humbly you grovel, whether you like him or not.

I have boiled down my entire Mormonism departure speech to, "I just can't believe in angels with gold plates and magic spectacles." It's really pretty hard to argue with that.

"Blah blah blah Joseph blah blah blah Chiasmus blah blah blah living prophet..."

I really, really did my best to believe it. I just don't."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Angeles and Plates

Post by moksha » Sat May 29, 2021 2:50 am

I think an indicator for Mormonism acceptance is rejecting the idea that Joseph Smith made it all up. If he didn't make it all up, then the angels, gold plates, polygamy, the Garden of Eden being in Missouri, Moon Quakers, and the three-dollar bill can all be believed.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Angeles and Plates

Post by Hagoth » Sat May 29, 2021 6:09 am

moksha wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 2:50 am
I think an indicator for Mormonism acceptance is rejecting the idea that Joseph Smith made it all up. If he didn't make it all up, then the angels, gold plates, polygamy, the Garden of Eden being in Missouri, Moon Quakers, and the three-dollar bill can all be believed.
Many of us have tried to dwell in that uncanny valley of Mormon belief where you accept that Joseph made some of it up, but some of it is real. Skilled apologists seem to be able to set up permanent residence there but for most of us the soil is too rocky for our seed to take purchase and eventually we have to move on.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Angeles and Plates

Post by jfro18 » Sat May 29, 2021 7:00 am

1smartdodog wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 11:06 am
I heard someplace if you can make Angles and Gold Plates work everything else comes naturally.

Makes sense that belief in one supernatural event opens your your brain to all sorts of other zany ideas.

Its like being a conspiracy theorist, you see them everywhere.
I've seen this argument used by apologists too. Basically they'll say "Look if you can believe in magical stones then you can believe in anything."

And on one hand they're right - if you believe in the plates then yeah everything else comes naturally.

On the other hand, it just shows that the moment you're willing to suspend belief for something that not only doesn't make sense but has evidence *against* it, then you are primed to believe ideas that could be harmful or dangerous to yourself or groups in your communities.

Charlotte
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Re: Angeles and Plates

Post by Charlotte » Sat May 29, 2021 3:00 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 6:09 am
moksha wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 2:50 am
I think an indicator for Mormonism acceptance is rejecting the idea that Joseph Smith made it all up. If he didn't make it all up, then the angels, gold plates, polygamy, the Garden of Eden being in Missouri, Moon Quakers, and the three-dollar bill can all be believed.
Many of us have tried to dwell in that uncanny valley of Mormon belief where you accept that Joseph made some of it up, but some of it is real. Skilled apologists seem to be able to set up permanent residence there but for most of us the soil is too rocky for our seed to take purchase and eventually we have to move on.
This describes me, although I can only move on mentally. I’ve tried to think of a way to explain it to my husband. Something like, Do you believe *everything* JS said? No. So you agree that he made some of it up? I guess. Well, you believe he made 10% up and I believe he made 90% up. Can you see how this changes things???

And I’m just so done with thinking about him. He doesn’t interest me, and I feel a bit trapped in a system that is powered by him.

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moksha
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Re: Angeles and Plates

Post by moksha » Sat May 29, 2021 4:02 pm

Just out of curiosity, what at the parts that you think were not made up?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Charlotte
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Re: Angeles and Plates

Post by Charlotte » Sat May 29, 2021 5:18 pm

moksha wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 4:02 pm
Just out of curiosity, what at the parts that you think were not made up?
For instance, I can believe that he had a powerful experience in a grove of trees when saw/sensed a deity, and then was filled with relief and love when his sins were forgiven. But that’s about it - not the rest of the account, not the other accounts.

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Hagoth
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Re: Angeles and Plates

Post by Hagoth » Sat May 29, 2021 6:49 pm

moksha wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 4:02 pm
Just out of curiosity, what at the parts that you think were not made up?
What if it turned out that Zelph is the only thing that is true.

Or the angel with the sword. Yeah, I like that. He lied about seeing Elohim, Jesus, Moses, Elijah, Moroni, et. al. but he really did see an angel with a sword that commanded him to marry teenagers. I'm going to tuck that in my back pocket for when someone asks, "Don't you believe ANY of it?"
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Angeles and Plates

Post by moksha » Mon May 31, 2021 6:43 pm

For those who cannot get enough of Book of Mormon stuff, here is an interesting thread by a poster named Shulem that addresses an interesting relationship between the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=857
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Angeles and Plates

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:30 am

moksha wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 6:43 pm
For those who cannot get enough of Book of Mormon stuff, here is an interesting thread by a poster named Shulem that addresses an interesting relationship between the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=857
Very interesting. I was pretty knocked over by the New Testament parallels to the Abinidi-Noah-Alma story. I hope I wasn't breaking protocol by asking a question; my first time posting there.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Angeles and Plates

Post by moksha » Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:33 am

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:30 am
moksha wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 6:43 pm
For those who cannot get enough of Book of Mormon stuff, here is an interesting thread by a poster named Shulem that addresses an interesting relationship between the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=857
Very interesting. I was pretty knocked over by the New Testament parallels to the Abinidi-Noah-Alma story. I hope I wasn't breaking protocol by asking a question; my first time posting there.
Shulem will appreciate your question.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Angeles and Plates

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:13 pm

moksha wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:33 am
Shulem will appreciate your question.
The parallels he found in the Abinidi/Noah/Alma story really made me do this: :shock:
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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