NOM

I was listening to the Mormonism Live podcast about Adam/God. It seems like Jehovah is the square peg in all forms of Mormon Doctrine. The current doctrine of Jehovah-as-preexistent-Jesus is very messy and contrived, in my opinion. Jesus seemed to think the God of the Old Testament was his father, which both the trinitarians AND the non-trinitarian-Mormons interpret as Jesus talking about another manifestation of himself, except in Mormonism when Jesus prays to his father he's actually praying to somebody else (Elohim). Whew.

I have also always had a hard time figuring out where Jehovah fits into Adam/God doctrine. RFM and Bill say the hierarchy is: Adam (father), Jehovah (grandfather), Elohim (great-grandfather), with Jesus being the son of Adam-God. In other places it sounds like Elohim is Adam's immediate god and father, with Jehovah sort of slipping through the cracks.

Of course things really get hairy when you try to justify Brigham saying you can only be saved if you DO believe Adam/God, and modern authorities, like BRM, saying you will be damned if you DO believe it.

And, just to muddy the water even further, we have Joseph Smith using the names interchangeably and even talking about a character named Jehovah-Elohim. I won't even bring up the baby and toddler gods this time. Oops, just did.

Is it all just a theological Jello fest or is there some kind of concrete definition of this Adam/God thingy?

I’ve found it much easier to believe all of these gods are inventions of man...then all of this makes sense.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Sat May 29, 2021 10:12 am

Is it all just a theological Jello fest or is there some kind of concrete definition of this Adam/God thingy?

The way Paul Toscano describes Adam/God/Whateva in his Mormon Stories podcast is the only time I ever felt like I had any sort of understanding that part of this whole mess.

It's a podcast from way-back-when, and it's been a L_O_N_G time since I listened, so I've basically forgotten it all, and I can't really explain any of it at this point.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Sat May 29, 2021 10:12 am

I was listening to the Mormonism Live podcast about Adam/God. It seems like Jehovah is the square peg in all forms of Mormon Doctrine. The current doctrine of Jehovah-as-preexistent-Jesus is very messy and contrived, in my opinion. Jesus seemed to think the God of the Old Testament was his father, which both the trinitarians AND the non-trinitarian-Mormons interpret as Jesus talking about another manifestation of himself, except in Mormonism when Jesus prays to his father he's actually praying to somebody else (Elohim). Whew.

I have also always had a hard time figuring out where Jehovah fits into Adam/God doctrine. RFM and Bill say the hierarchy is: Adam (father), Jehovah (grandfather), Elohim (great-grandfather), with Jesus being the son of Adam-God. In other places it sounds like Elohim is Adam's immediate god and father, with Jehovah sort of slipping through the cracks.

Of course things really get hairy when you try to justify Brigham saying you can only be saved if you DO believe Adam/God, and modern authorities, like BRM, saying you will be damned if you DO believe it.

And, just to muddy the water even further, we have Joseph Smith using the names interchangeably and even talking about a character named Jehovah-Elohim. I won't even bring up the baby and toddler gods this time. Oops, just did.

Is it all just a theological Jello fest or is there some kind of concrete definition of this Adam/God thingy?

I listened to this podcast and was thinking exactly the same thing. I have always wondered about the Jehovah=Jesus doctrine. John Larson also had a good podcast about Adam/God. http://johnlarsen.org/podcast/Archive/M ... on188.mp3. The way I understand it is that it Goes Elohim->Jehovah->Michael/Adam->Jesus. This makes sense when you look at how the temple video hierarchy of gods is set up. There seem to be multiple contradictions and the doctrine seemed to collapse under its own weight.

I believe it was Franklin D. Richards who first proposed the theory that Jehovah and Jesus were the same person in the 1885 General Conference.

I had never heard the Wilford Woodruff quote in 1895 who was trying to answer questions about who Elohim, Jehovah, Adam and Jesus were. I guess missionaries were confused about what they should be teaching to investigators. He basically said to forget about it and don't bring it up. I tried to find a copy of this talk but was not able to locate it.

It wasn't until Talmage was commissioned to write Jesus the Christ that the the current godhead doctrine was created. There was a first presidency statement that established it officially around 1916.

I believe that the Jehovah doctrine is like the doctrine that Elias is a calling. Joseph Smith made a mistake in thinking that Elias and Elijah were two different people. Apologists decided the way to explain this was to say that Elias can refer to a calling. This eventually evolved from apologetic spin to established doctrine that is actively taught in the church today. While I was listening to the RFM podcast I had the thought that the Jehovah doctrine might have evolved in the same way. With the new definition of the godhead Jehovah didn't really have a place to fit in. The best way to resolve it was to equate Jehovah with Jesus. That has its own problems but it was the best explanation at the time.

The Lectures on Faith part of the Doctrine and Covenants was removed a few years later because it wasn't in line with this new definition of the godhead.

I would love to hear RFM do a podcast about how the godhead and Jehovah doctrine has evolved over the 1st 100 years of the church. I bet there is a lot more to learn about this.

oliblish wrote: ↑

Sat May 29, 2021 6:47 pm

The way I understand it is that it Goes Elohim->Jehovah->Michael/Adam->Jesus.

We're just THIS close to the point where it all starts to make sense:

Cthulhu>Elohim->Jehovah->Michael/Adam->Jesus.

Do we know the extent of the Council of Gods? I imagine the First Presidency has the full list of this pantheon and the rest of us must guess the rest of the Council members.

Here goes:

Odin, Zeus, Athena, Manitou, Kal-El of Krypton, Buddha, Ganesha... Hey, can you think of any others?

moksha wrote: ↑

Sat May 29, 2021 10:54 pm

Do we know the extent of the Council of Gods? I imagine the First Presidency has the full list of this pantheon and the rest of us must guess the rest of the Council members.

Here goes:

Odin, Zeus, Athena, Manitou, Kal-El of Krypton, Buddha, Ganesha... Hey, can you think of any others?

Geez, Moksha. You forgot the FSM.

Our friend Kwaku claims there are 7 gods in the council and Joseph Smith is one of them. I wonder if FAIR is down with that.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Sun May 30, 2021 1:19 pm

Our friend Kwaku claims there are 7 gods in the council and Joseph Smith is one of them. I wonder if FAIR is down with that.

Joseph Smith sounds likes a deep Mormonism pick for the Council of Gods. We could scratch Athena since she was a woman and thus would not jive with the Melchizedek Priesthood lock on divinity.

moksha wrote: ↑

Sat May 29, 2021 10:54 pm

Odin, Zeus, Athena, Manitou, Kal-El of Krypton, Buddha, Ganesha... Hey, can you think of any others?

Lakshmi, and likely hundreds of others in the Hindu pantheon.

What aboot Elohim? Eloher? Elothem?