Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

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moksha
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Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by moksha » Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:06 am

No genetic traces of Israelite genetics are found in Native Americans!!! This puts LDS apologetics into overdrive trying to come up with plausible-sounding excuses.

I have come up with a few excuses to help them out.

1. The Lamanites were all beamed up to the domed Space City of Enoch, to help test and thereby increase the faith of believing Latter-day Saints.

2. The genetic traces failed because of the divine curse that turned all Lamanite DNA from Jewish to Asiatic. This has the beauty of being a very Mormon answer without any hint of apologetic desperateness.

The third answer is of a more nuanced LDS variety.

3. "So were you expecting a different outcome from a fictionalized religious allegory? Oy vey, what a goy!"


What are your thoughts on this issue?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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stuck
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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by stuck » Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:06 pm

They like to think about the limited geography theory I guess to imply that their gene pool was swallowed up by those around them. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me as the BOM does not give much support to outsiders being in the land around them other than the Lamanites and Nephites and Mulekites. Then you have Joseph Smith sending Oliver Cowdery to the Lamanites on a mission--which Lamanites are Native Americans and don't have any Jewish DNA.

I like Moksha's idea of them being beamed up :D It kind of reminds me of reasons I've heard as to why dinosaur bones exist.

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nibbler
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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by nibbler » Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:56 pm

Nephi constructed a boat that was capable of traveling through a wormhole and the events that took place in the BoM happened on a different planet far across the universe.

JS never had the physical plates, but could see them through a vision in his hat.
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alas
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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by alas » Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:52 pm

stuck wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:06 pm
They like to think about the limited geography theory I guess to imply that their gene pool was swallowed up by those around them. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me as the BOM does not give much support to outsiders being in the land around them other than the Lamanites and Nephites and Mulekites. Then you have Joseph Smith sending Oliver Cowdery to the Lamanites on a mission--which Lamanites are Native Americans and don't have any Jewish DNA.

I like Moksha's idea of them being beamed up :D It kind of reminds me of reasons I've heard as to why dinosaur bones exist.
If there were any descendants no matter how many of the other their ancestors married, any trace of descendants at all of Lehi among the American Natives, the DNA experts could have found it. After all, they can find the remaining traces of Neanderthal and Denisovian, and “something else” that they have not found the remains of to get the DNA, but they can recognize it as different than modern humans, (anyway, long sentence to say if there was any Jewish ancestry, no matter how minor, the scientists could find it. So, the Jewish DNA didn’t get overwhelmed by other DNA, it left no trace as if those people never existed. Because there *was* no interbreeding with Jewish people in any surviving American Native. But scientist think maybe they have found interbreeding from the Roanoke colony and from the Vikings! Just no Jews.

This “swallowed up” theory holds no water. After all, the Neanderthal DNA hasn’t been swallowed up in 40-60 thousands of years, why would Jewish DNA be swallowed up after less than 2 thousand years.

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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by Corsair » Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:47 pm

stuck wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:06 pm
I like Moksha's idea of them being beamed up :D It kind of reminds me of reasons I've heard as to why dinosaur bones exist.
I have heard Evangelicals say, "Dinosaurs? I think you mean Dragons." Our favorite church is not the only ones with post hoc explanations via literalist, inerrantist views on scripture..

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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by wtfluff » Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:05 pm

moksha wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:06 am
1. The Lamanites were all beamed up to the domed Space City of Enoch, to help test and thereby increase the faith of believing Latter-day Saints.
This is exactly the type of kookiness I would have loved to bounce around in my fluffy head as a believer to tame the cognitive dissonance.

Of course as a believer, I had no idea that there were any "issues" with the Lamanites, so I didn't need this type of explanation.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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deacon blues
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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by deacon blues » Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:56 pm

Don't forget the 10 tribes of pure bred Israel who are living near the North pole, or perhaps inside the hollow earth. They are waiting for a highway to be thrown down over the deep. I think they will return to Jerusalem, but maybe a few will go to Independence Missouri to re-anoint King Joseph, Jr.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Hagoth
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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by Hagoth » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:14 pm

Hey, Simon Southerton has a new book out about this stuff (not the Enoch city, but the Lamanite stuff).

The story I remember hearing when I was a kid that really got my cogs spinning was that Joseph Smith pointed out a tiny star near the North Star to some people and said, "See that? That's where the Ten Tribes are right now." Maybe the Lamanites went there too. I also remember some general authority speculating off the record that the City of Enoch is now orbiting the sun in its own planetary orbit around the sun. If it took a big enough chunk maybe there's room for Lamanites, but that's a lot of mouths to feed. The crater it left should be easily visible on Google Earth.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by wtfluff » Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:57 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:14 pm
The crater it left should be easily visible on Google Earth.
Well... {Extra L_O_N_G... P__A__U__S__E...}

Have you looked at The Gulf of Mexico on Google Earth, Rider of Mighty Steeds? ;) ;) ;) ... :P
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Hagoth
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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by Hagoth » Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:37 am

wtfluff wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:57 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:14 pm
The crater it left should be easily visible on Google Earth.
Well... {Extra L_O_N_G... P__A__U__S__E...}

Have you looked at The Gulf of Mexico on Google Earth, Rider of Mighty Steeds? ;) ;) ;) ... :P
:shock: If the Garden of Eden was in Missouri I guess it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that the City of Enoch might have been in Mexico. We don't even have to concern ourselves with the claims of so-called scientists that the Chixulub crater was actually made by the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs, because The Prophet of God Almighty, even Joseph Fielding Smith, clarified for us that there were no dinosaurs, and that Elohim planted recycled fossils in the earth about 6000 years ago just to mess with us.

So yeah, it all adds up.

Now we just have to find the Iridium plates of Elonhah that tell the story of how God commanded him to build spaceships to evacuate everyone who carried Lehite DNA.

For now we just have to go with the LDS Living article illustration:

Image
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by græy » Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:49 am

moksha wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:06 am
2. The genetic traces failed because of the divine curse that turned all Lamanite DNA from Jewish to Asiatic. This has the beauty of being a very Mormon answer without any hint of apologetic desperateness.

What are your thoughts on this issue?
.
#2 is actually one of the very wobbly pillars that supported my crumbling shelf for an embarrassingly long number of years. I reasoned that Israelite DNA changed when God cursed them with dark skin. That explains both the lack of Israelite DNA and how the darkened skin was accomplished. But I had to stop thinking there. It turns out the whole argument falls apart if you go just another step or two down that path.

a) The Nephite DNA did not change (no curse of dark skin) and there was inter-marriage between the Nephites and Lamanites (even though one of the claimed functions of dark skin was to make the unattractive). If unmodified Nephite DNA mixed with modified Lamanite DNA, the Nephite threads should still be visible today.

b) Native American DNA is Asiatic. If God needed to change Lamanite DNA to produce the dark skin, fine. But why make it Asiatic? That just SCREAMS trickster God, which never sat right with me since my early childhood when my mother told me God put dinosaur bones in the dirt to test our faith.

That said, when you look at the big picture, the Mormon God is a trickster god. He always has been.

* Endless does not mean endless
* God and Christ are one, but not one. We're united because we have the same goals, and we're the same person, unless we're not.
* Dinosaur bones
* Polygamy is the order of heaven. But monogamy is God's standard.
* Pharisees are bad because they give weight to the letter of the law not the spirit. But also, coffee and the wrong color underwear will keep you out of heaven.

Sorry, I'm getting of course...
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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wtfluff
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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by wtfluff » Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:25 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:37 am
wtfluff wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:57 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:14 pm
The crater it left should be easily visible on Google Earth.
Well... {Extra L_O_N_G... P__A__U__S__E...}

Have you looked at The Gulf of Mexico on Google Earth, Rider of Mighty Steeds? ;) ;) ;) ... :P
:shock: If the Garden of Eden was in Missouri I guess it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that the City of Enoch might have been in Mexico.

...
You have heard the MORmON Urban Legend that the City of Enoch resided where The Gulf of Mexico is, have you not?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Red Ryder
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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:24 am

græy wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:49 am
That said, when you look at the big picture, the Mormon God is a trickster god. He always has been.

* Endless does not mean endless
* God and Christ are one, but not one. We're united because we have the same goals, and we're the same person, unless we're not.
* Dinosaur bones
* Polygamy is the order of heaven. But monogamy is God's standard.
* Pharisees are bad because they give weight to the letter of the law not the spirit. But also, coffee and the wrong color underwear will keep you out of heaven.

Sorry, I'm getting of course...
Perfectly describes the schizophrenic god I once believed in. Now I just shake my head at the absurdities and wear black underwear from Costco. Apparently I can’t get away from wearing underwear from an organization that requires membership. 😂
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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moksha
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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by moksha » Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:53 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:14 pm
I also remember some general authority speculating off the record that the City of Enoch is now orbiting the sun in its own planetary orbit around the sun. If it took a big enough chunk maybe there's room for Lamanites, but that's a lot of mouths to feed. The crater it left should be easily visible on Google Earth.
Putting on my apologetics thinking cap: With grappling hooks, the Enochites were able to pull in a number of asteroids and enlarge the domed city. The former landmass of Enoch we now know as Lake Victoria. The extracted land filled in with water and indeed is easily visible with Google Earth.

BTW, I got my idea for helping the LDS apologists by watching Simon Southerton's recent appearance on Mormon Stories. I figured they needed a hand with the Lamanite story.

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/n ... outherton/
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by Hagoth » Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:32 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:25 am
Hagoth wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:37 am
wtfluff wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:57 pm

Well... {Extra L_O_N_G... P__A__U__S__E...}

Have you looked at The Gulf of Mexico on Google Earth, Rider of Mighty Steeds? ;) ;) ;) ... :P
:shock: If the Garden of Eden was in Missouri I guess it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that the City of Enoch might have been in Mexico.

...
You have heard the MORmON Urban Legend that the City of Enoch resided where The Gulf of Mexico is, have you not?
I heard it from you but I didn't know it was a real thing. Geez. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, considering that a lot of Mormons also believe that kangaroos and penguins were carried to the ark by angels and then put back where they came from after the waters receded.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by moksha » Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:39 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:32 pm
I guess I shouldn't be surprised, considering that a lot of Mormons also believe that kangaroos and penguins were carried to the ark by angels and then put back where they came from after the waters receded.
Seems only fair since it was a long way for the kangaroos, penguins, and platypuses to travel to Missouri to board the Ark.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by Bonfire » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:16 am

moksha wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:06 am
No genetic traces of Israelite genetics are found in Native Americans!!! This puts LDS apologetics into overdrive trying to come up with plausible-sounding excuses.
What if instead the Israelite DNA sample is incorrect? It's very possible the history of Israel and the genetic lineage has been completely lost.

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Hagoth
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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by Hagoth » Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:55 am

Bonfire wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:16 am
What if instead the Israelite DNA sample is incorrect? It's very possible the history of Israel and the genetic lineage has been completely lost.
I don't believe that is even remotely possible.

We know Israelite DNA lineages the same way we know Native American and Asian lineages - because the remains of individuals from the Levant have been DNA sequence from long before Book of Mormon times right up to the present. What you're suggesting would require that there is that there is a secret, undetectable Israelite lineage, which is no better than LDS apologists squeezed-out hypothesis or the Leprechauns-built-the-pyramids hypothesis (my personal theory!)

Living Native Americans still have DNA lineage that can be clearly traced to 24,000 year old individuals who were buried in Siberia. And they still have Neanderthal DNA from tens of thousands of years before that. Apologists would have you believe that ONLY the Israelite lineage got squeezed out by the bottleneck effect, the founder effect, and genetic drift. But if there was any kind of significant link to the middle east we would see it in the DNA record. Actually, there is a genetic link but it dates to many thousands of years before Book of Mormon times, which is consistent with Native Americans being the last stop on a long eastward expansion.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by Bonfire » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:34 pm

There is a very interesting alternative chronology of history that I glanced over which compares the historical recordings of the solstices instead of the ancient writings passed down from the nobles and monasteries of the "dark ages" in Europe. This mathematical reorganization of the past reveals new discoveries which counter the tale told by the traditional paradigm.

The premise: Almost all of our knowledge from before the fall of the Roman Empire is recorded by monks (eg. Pliney the Elder) who were financed by the elites of Europe, therefore what they wrote was influenced by the victors of the time, so any radio carbon dating to artifacts referred to in historical documents from before medieval times is purportedly incorrect.

This suggests most of what is taught in the West is based on error, including our understanding of ancient civilizations and where we believe they ended up today (eg. Israel)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVH8eyfToR4

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moksha
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Re: Lamanites called to Enoch Space City?

Post by moksha » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:20 pm

I had to look up that author on the Wikipedia:
Fomenko is one of authors of a concept that manipulates historical chronology. It is known as New Chronology. Fomenko claims that he has discovered that many historical events do not correspond mathematically with the dates they are supposed to have occurred on. He asserts from this that all of ancient history (including the history of Greece, Rome, and Egypt) is just a reflection of events that occurred in the Middle Ages and that all of Chinese and Arab history are fabrications of 17th and 18th century Jesuits.

He also claims that Jesus lived in the 12th century A.D. and was crucified on Joshua's Hill; that the Trojan War and the Crusades were the same historical event; and that Genghis Khan and the Mongols were actually Russians, that the lands west of the 13 colonies that now constitute the American West and Middle West were a far eastern part of "Siberian-American Empire" prior to its disintegration in 1775, and many other theories, that contradict the conventional historiography to say the least.[citation needed] As well as disputing written chronologies, Fomenko also disputes more objective dating techniques such as dendrochronology and radiocarbon dating (see here for an examination of the latter criticism). His books include Empirico-statistical Analysis of Narrative Material and Its Applications and History: Fiction or Science?.

Most Russian scientists and worldwide historians consider Fomenko's historical works to be either pseudoscientific or antiscientific.[2][3][4]
Couldn't find anything about his thoughts on the domed space city of Enoch, so I will assume he supports it.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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