Joseph Smith's "real" first vision

[Giant Steps]

There seems to be consensus that Joseph Smith's earliest vision account where he talks about going into the woods to seek forgiveness of his sins is the one that seems to be the most corroborated with events of that time. The '38 version appears embellished. This being the case does anyone here think Joseph really experienced something and this led him to a life in religious and spiritual creation? The Moroni/Gold Plates stuff seem, at least earlier, of the treasure guardian variety but Joseph does sound and seem sincere when he talks of his journey into the woods to commune with God. Any reason to think or not think Joseph actually believed he experienced something with the divine in the spring of 1820? What was Joseph Smith up to?

[didyoumythme]

He may have experienced something...but was it a significant something? I don't see a reason to believe that. The only thing clear to me is that JS may have had some sort of spiritual experience between 1820-1824 and there were trees nearby. I ascribe to more of a pious fraud theory of JS. He was a man with a creative mind and grand ideas. He believed in everything supernatural and assigned meaning to patterns in randomness in the world around him. People followed him based on his confidence and charisma. He was well practiced in getting people to follow him from his treasure seeking/glass-looking days.

I wish something would line up with this guy, but I see too much wrong with his foundational stories. The church uses the first vision as the reason we understand the nature of God as physical, separate etc. Those details are too inconsistent in the many versions to draw conclusions. The tipping point for me is that JS originally taught a trinitarian view of God - It's in the BoM, its in his changes to bible verses, and it's in the lectures on faith.

[Corsair]

This type of revelatory manifestation was not all the uncommon in the early 1800s. The MormonThink website has a great compilation of visions recorded by people at that time that had no connection to Mormonism. The Mormon "First Vision" story is just not that compelling compared with the surprisingly prosaic stories of visions from many other people. If we are going to build faith based on Joseph's vaunted First Vision, then we have to carefully and prayerfully evaluate many others including:

• Ellen White of the Seventh Day Adventists
• Mary Baker Eddy of the Christian Scientists
• Mohammed, the founder of Islam

This is just three I lazily recalled without any additional research. There are definitely others and Joseph's visions are just not that compelling after seeing how many other people have experienced their own theophany.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

He may have experienced something...but was it a significant something? I don't see a reason to believe that. The only thing clear to me is that JS may have had some sort of spiritual experience between 1820-1824 and there were trees nearby. I ascribe to more of a pious fraud theory of JS. He was a man with a creative mind and grand ideas. He believed in everything supernatural and assigned meaning to patterns in randomness in the world around him. People followed him based on his confidence and charisma. He was well practiced in getting people to follow him from his treasure seeking/glass-looking days.

I wish something would line up with this guy, but I see too much wrong with his foundational stories. The church uses the first vision as the reason we understand the nature of God as physical, separate etc. Those details are too inconsistent in the many versions to draw conclusions. The tipping point for me is that JS originally taught a trinitarian view of God - It's in the BoM, its in his changes to bible verses, and it's in the lectures on faith.

This! ^^^^^^^ +1

[Giant Steps]

I know apologists will argue that the understanding of the true nature of God was slowly unfolding as Joseph's knowledge grew. That maybe he didn't understand the full scope of the first vision experience till he was older. But you'd then have to believe God allowed him to teach an incorrect version of God in the pivotal early days of the church. Don't know why that vital info would need to come later.

I think one reason I've had trouble "leaving Mormonism alone" is because there is so much we don't know about how things went down. How did Smith produce the Book of Mormon so quickly and deceive so many. Why keep up such an elaborate, difficult story for years to try and pull off something this grand when there were probably easier scams. Was Oliver and Sidney in on it or were they willing dupes. The unanswered questions will drive one mad and extremely intelligent people continue to argue in favor or the reality of these experiences. Most frauds that happened over history we've been able to piece together how they went down. Mormonism is still an enigma.