John Larsen and the handcart horror story

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Hagoth
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John Larsen and the handcart horror story

Post by Hagoth » Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:20 am

I thought John Larsen did a great job of telling the horror story of the handcart pioneers. I especially appreciated his observations about how you can hide a huge mistake by celebrating it as a success and turning it into an emotional youth indoctrination tool.

There were a couple of points that I learned about from Will Bagley that Larsen didn't discuss that I think are very important.

Brigham Young tasked John Taylor with planning the practical details of the Martin-Willey crossing. Taylor laid out a solid, detailed plan that would ensure the companies were well fed via food caches placed for them along the way. Brigham outright rejected the plan to save something like $13 per person. Taylor begged Young to not choose money over human lives, but Brigham stood his ground.

Also, Brigham had a personal wagon train heading west at the same time. It included wagons full of his personal stock of coffee, tobacco and brandy. It was also carrying the steam engine for his personal Great Salt Lake yacht. When that train got bogged down in the same storm that hammered the handcart pioneers, Brigham first sent a rescue party to try to rescue his personal goods and get them safely to the Salt Lake valley. Only when that failed did he turn his interest to the suffering handcart companies.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

stuck
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Re: John Larsen and the handcart horror story

Post by stuck » Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:02 am

Brigham was a piece of work right!? :shock: He probably learned from Joseph that it's good to be king :twisted:

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moksha
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Re: John Larsen and the handcart horror story

Post by moksha » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:05 pm

All those people dying because of greed, neglect, and arrogance on the part of Church leaders (Franklin Richards and Brigham Young).
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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wtfluff
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Re: John Larsen and the handcart horror story

Post by wtfluff » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:46 am

I remember quite distinctly during my trip down the rabbit-hole when I attended one of those "Pioneer Day" productions put on by the Corp. and I was smacked in the head with the realization that it was all manipulative propaganda. The guilt that this provides the Corp. to heap on believers is real.

Are there any very large "celebrations" where they re-enact the Donner Party disaster over, and over, and over? Why not???
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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blazerb
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Re: John Larsen and the handcart horror story

Post by blazerb » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:30 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:20 am
There were a couple of points that I learned about from Will Bagley that Larsen didn't discuss that I think are very important.
Which Will Bagley source did these come from? It's been a while since I read Blood of the Prophets.

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Hagoth
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Re: John Larsen and the handcart horror story

Post by Hagoth » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:45 pm

blazerb wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:30 am
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:20 am
There were a couple of points that I learned about from Will Bagley that Larsen didn't discuss that I think are very important.
Which Will Bagley source did these come from? It's been a while since I read Blood of the Prophets.
It was an article he sent me that was being prepped for publication, but I don't recall where it ended up getting published. I'll have to dig it up.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: John Larsen and the handcart horror story

Post by Hagoth » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:50 pm

Here's a RadioWest episode where Will talks about both points, starting around minute 32:00.

https://radiowest.kuer.org/post/where-g ... -mountains
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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stealthbishop
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Re: John Larsen and the handcart horror story

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:17 am

OMG! That's horrifying. Even more than usual.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

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Corsair
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Re: John Larsen and the handcart horror story

Post by Corsair » Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:32 pm

I have listened to probably all of the Mormon Expression episodes and I thought I had heard all of the horror stories. The terrible conditions of the handcart companies were new to me.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: John Larsen and the handcart horror story

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:44 am

Has anything really changed? Definitely the valuables for the top brass are more hidden, placating handcart pullers with care and support at the local level now. But if you are on your deathbed and an apostle shows up, instead of a hand on the head to get out of your bed, it will be a handshake and a cliché' "Well done good and faithful servant." Bonus heaven points for signing over your trust to TSCC.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Hagoth
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Re: John Larsen and the handcart horror story

Post by Hagoth » Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:17 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:44 am
Bonus heaven points for signing over your trust to TSCC.
In my father's house are many mansions. Sign here to make your downpayment and lock in a celestial mortgage rate.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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deacon blues
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Re: John Larsen and the handcart horror story

Post by deacon blues » Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:26 am

1. The Church is so good at damage control because it has lots of practice: Polygamy, handcarts, Mountain Meadows, Adam-God, Blood atonement, priesthood ban, LGBT issues, women's issues.
2. The Church has had to learn to use damage control because it can't deal with Absolute Truth and Absolute love.
3. More than 50% of the Church doesn't even care about damage control because they just want to believe.
4. The Church loses 20-40% of it's members every generation, but because of the internet those that it loses in the 21st Century are able to make more noise.
5. A God of Truth & Love doesn't need damage control. Such a God is a teacher and a forgiver.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Palerider
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Re: John Larsen and the handcart horror story

Post by Palerider » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:53 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:26 am
1. it has lots of practice: Polygamy, handcarts, Mountain Meadows, Adam-God, Blood atonement, priesthood ban, LGBT issues, women's issues.
2. The Church has had to learn to use damage control because it can't deal with Absolute Truth and Absolute love.
3.
4. The Church loses 20-40% of it's members every generation, but because of the internet those that it loses in the 21st Century are able to make more noise.
5. A God of Truth & Love doesn't need damage control. Such a God is a teacher and a forgiver.

I'm going to take a different tack on 1. and 3.

1. The Church isn't too good at damage control but more than 50% of the Church doesn't even care about damage control because they just want to believe.

3. Don't bother me, I'm sleeping.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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