Saturday Sabbath

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Bonfire
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Saturday Sabbath

Post by Bonfire » Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:55 am

In my recent reading of the Bible clearly the date for rest and worship of higher intelligence is the last day of the week: Saturday.

Why do Christians, both Catholic and Mormons, worship on Sunday the first day?
Is there some occult reason why those who claim to love God, life, and the universe would worship on the first day of the week, the day of the Sun, instead of on the last day?

If we were willing to sacrifice Christ, the son of God, then is his sacrifice enough to never need lose another son (or daughter) again?
Or do modern religious folks simply give praise on Sunday, taking sacraments and communions together, recognizing the sacrifice of the savior and the prince of peace, while encouragin their sons to sign up for military service and prepare for a life of self-sacrifice?

What differences are there between cults of human sacrifice and modern day sunday-worshipping christians?
“Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God; “For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him” (D&C 18:10–11).

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wtfluff
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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by wtfluff » Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:57 am

Bonfire wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:55 am
Why do Christians, both Catholic and Mormons, worship on Sunday the first day?
I was taught in MORmONism that MORmONs worship on Sunday because Jesus was supposedly resurrected on Sunday. MORmONs celebrate the "Day of the Lord" weekly, not the traditional/biblical "Sabbath/seventh day."

Of course Jews and Seventh Day Adventists (and probably other groups) will say that all the "first day" worshipers are doing it wrong...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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moksha
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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by moksha » Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:07 am

The Emperor Constantine wishing to cut down on missed days of work, made Christians observe the religious worship day of Mithra which was Sunday. The Jews still have their observance from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Bonfire
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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by Bonfire » Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:44 pm

The apologetics I have read include worship on Saturday includes cleaning the church and taking care of housekeeping as respect to God. However, this seem to directly contradict the idea of a "day of rest."

On that note, I'm heading out to the wilderness to worship and encourage you to do the same.
“Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God; “For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him” (D&C 18:10–11).

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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by hmb » Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:18 am

Bonfire wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:44 pm
The apologetics I have read include worship on Saturday includes cleaning the church and taking care of housekeeping as respect to God. However, this seem to directly contradict the idea of a "day of rest."

On that note, I'm heading out to the wilderness to worship and encourage you to do the same.
“Saturday is a special day,
It’s the day we get ready for Sunday;
We clean the house and we shop at the store,
so we won’t have to work until Monday;
We brush our clothes and we shine our shoes,
And we call it our “get-the-work-done” day;
Then we trim our nails and we shampoo our hair,
so we can be ready for Sunday!”

I think someone needs to create a change or addition to this song, about taking your turn to clean the church building/temple. It could be about completely wrecking Saturdays and losing your "fun day." BTW, how is a dingy looking church (cleaned badly) showing respect to God or anyone? The buildings I've been in (and I admit to not visiting many buildings) feel icky, like a house that's vacuumed and dusted, but not cleaned.

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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by dogbite » Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:53 pm

When the week starts and ends is entirely arbitrary and is simply a cultural artifact. In Europe for example, all the calendars start on Monday making Sunday the 7th day. My preference is to start the week on Monday and so I set my electronic calendars to work that way. It's a pretty standard feature of the calendar to allow you to pick the start of the week.

And what basis is there to think that we've had a consistent counting of days since Adam was placed in the garden?

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2bizE
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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by 2bizE » Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:15 pm

The sabbath represents the seventh day when god rested. It is Shabbat, and the calendar named the seventh day after Shabbat: in English it is Saturday. Christians, including Mormons, stole the name and practice from Jews and moved it to Sunday, probably just to piss them off.
Suppose in a village there are beef producers and fishermen. One day, the fishermen start calling beef fish. Over the centuries, the fisherman keep referring to beef as fish. The beef producers never changed, and keep calling it beef. Over time, the fishermen have no idea why they call beef fish, but think it must be the correct way because surely the early fishermen had to be correct….
Last edited by 2bizE on Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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moksha
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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by moksha » Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:33 am

History Avian wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:07 am
Emperor Constantine wishing to cut down on missed days of work, made Christians observe the religious worship day of Mithra which was Sunday. The Jews still have their observance from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.
Once you get started in a habit it is hard to break, so much so that the original "day of rest" becomes discarded. You even have rationalizations as to why this is so. The Seventh-Day Adventists have been able to restore this practice in their worship, but for modern religionists this day of Mithra is sufficient.

The Church supported the Emperor on this point in the First Council of Nicaea and even supported the separation of Easter from the Jewish Passover.

This enmity for things Jewish grew over the years until now Marjorie Taylor Greene has Jewish space lasers starting forest fires in California and Mormons have replaced the Jews as God's most beloved chosen people.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Just This Guy
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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:40 am

Bonfire wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:55 am
Why do Christians, both Catholic and Mormons, worship on Sunday the first day?
How do you define the first day of the week? Form a business view, the first day of the week is Monday because that is that first day of operations in a 7 day period. The last day of the week is Sunday. That is the definition that works for them.

To a Jew, the week is Saturday to Friday. That is the definition that works for them.

Really, the week is arbitrary. There is nothing that stops a person or a group from creating their own week to fit their needs.

A while back, I read that originally Christianity followed the Jewish calendar of a Friday Sabbath. That quickly evolved to the Sabbath being on Sunday as that was the day that Jesus rose from the grave. So Christianity changed to a Monday to Sunday week. A few centuries Later, a pope decided to move the calendar to put the Sabbath as the 1st day in a week since to him it was the most important day of the week. That is what has survived to today.

There really is nothing in the Bible that says that sabbath shall be on a "Sunday". There is nothing that says the sabbath shall not be on a Wednesday. That is something that evolved over time. The B8ible says that the one day in 7 is the Sabbath. From there is is a purely made up human construct of how the calendar defines what a week is. It changes based on various needs.

On a related note, names of the days of the week come from old English gods that were worshiped centuries ago.
Sunday comes from Old English “Sunnandæg," which is derived from a Germanic interpretation of the Latin dies solis, "sun's day." Germanic and Norse mythology personify the sun as a goddess named Sunna or Sól.

Monday likewise comes from Old English “Mōnandæg,” named after Máni, the Norse personification of the moon (and Sól's brother).

Tuesday comes from Old English “Tīwesdæg,” after Tiw, or Tyr, a one-handed Norse god of dueling. He is equated with Mars, the Roman war god.

Wednesday
is "Wōden's day." Wōden, or Odin, was the ruler of the Norse gods' realm and associated with wisdom, magic, victory and death. The Romans connected Wōden to Mercury because they were both guides of souls after death. “Wednesday” comes from Old English “Wōdnesdæg.”

Thursday
, "Thor's day," gets its English name after the hammer-wielding Norse god of thunder, strength and protection. The Roman god Jupiter, as well as being the king of gods, was the god of the sky and thunder. “Thursday” comes from Old English “Þūnresdæg.”

Friday is named after the wife of Odin. Some scholars say her name was Frigg; others say it was Freya; other scholars say Frigg and Freya were two separate goddesses. Whatever her name, she was often associated with Venus, the Roman goddess of love, beauty and fertility. “Friday” comes from Old English “Frīgedæg.”

As for Saturday, Germanic and Norse traditions didn’t assign any of their gods to this day of the week. They retained the Roman name instead. The English word “Saturday” comes from the Anglo-Saxon word “Sæturnesdæg,” which translates to “Saturn’s day.”
https://www.livescience.com/45432-days-of-the-week.html
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Bonfire
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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by Bonfire » Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:07 am

In my reading of the Septuagint I have become fascinated with the plain and simple truths of the Bible.

The day of rest on the Sabbath is how God has asked us to worship. Out of all the things we could do, like drawing water or planting trees or building altars, God has simply asked us to rest and do no work (deut 7:12-15).

Being raised LDS my dad (a bishop) made it clear to us that Sunday is the Sabbath and our day of rest, even though I protested (as I did for other declarations such as tithing and temple ceremonies), for Sunday is the first day. We would labor on Saturdays together and for other members then Sunday we would get ready for church. However, doing things this way made us late for church and turned our "Sabbath" into a messy, chaotic ordeal of travel and meetings.

Now that I am older and have tested God's commands I know that Saturday is the Sabbath and our gift from God is to rest. When Sunday arrives I am refreshed and ready to work with others at church to discuss how we may bear one another's burdens and support each other. After church on Sunday I enjoy making meals and visiting my friends to help them out.

If we were all to rest on the Sabbath then there would be much to discuss on Sunday and we would know better how to help each other prepare for the rest of the week.
“Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God; “For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him” (D&C 18:10–11).

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nibbler
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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by nibbler » Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:29 am

dogbite wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:53 pm
When the week starts and ends is entirely arbitrary and is simply a cultural artifact. In Europe for example, all the calendars start on Monday making Sunday the 7th day. My preference is to start the week on Monday and so I set my electronic calendars to work that way. It's a pretty standard feature of the calendar to allow you to pick the start of the week.

And what basis is there to think that we've had a consistent counting of days since Adam was placed in the garden?
If given enough time JS would have probably come up with a revelation that's similar in nature to the reason for using water instead of wine for the sacrament.

"It mattereth not what day ye shall set aside when ye honor the sabbath, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory"

FWIW Saturdays always felt like the true sabbath anyway because church on Sunday often stretched into a seven or eight hour commitment and felt more like another day at my job than an actual day of rest.
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
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fetchface
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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by fetchface » Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:07 pm

When I was Elder's Quorum President, I would find myself frequently thinking, "day of rest, my ass."
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Hagoth
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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:45 pm

I only have seven days in each week, and Yahweh has all of the days of eternity to do with as he wishes, so I don't think he needs to take away any more of my precious days. Ditto for money. See you in the wilderness, Bonfire.
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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:50 am

I have come to appreciate a "day of rest" regardless of what day of the week it is. I think our Western culture is so materialistic and such a treadmill that it is hurting us physically and emotionally.

As early Christianity became more and more a pagan/gentile/non-Jewish religion and the earliest Jewish Christians faded, the Sabbath was shifted over to Sunday to mark "The Lord's Day" or the day of his resurrection. That may have been the theological rationale but there may have been other economic or political factors to move the day from Saturday to Sunday.
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Corsair
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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by Corsair » Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:28 pm

In the first century of Christianity the followers of Jesus considered themselves to be a subset of the Jews much like the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and Zealots. As a result, the first generation of Christians attended a synagogue on the Sabbath Saturday, then met with Christians for the Eucharist on Sunday. The Pharisees and other fellow Jews would not have tolerated veneration of this Jesus guy. He looked like a failed Messiah to anyone except the Christians. The major sects of Judaism in the first century of the Roman Empire never got along very well as seen in the New Testament where the Pharisees and Sadducees disagreed on just about everything except that Jesus needed to die.

So the Christians could not perform the sacrament around their "fellow Jews". But in Acts 15 we have the council at Jerusalem where the decision was made that the Christian Gentiles do not have to abide by the older Jewish Law except in a few things like keeping the Ten Commandments, not worshiping pagan gods, and avoiding sexual immorality. So they were not obligated to attend a synagogue on Saturday and just showed up for the Corinth First Ward on Sunday.

The destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 CE was a catastrophe for the Jews. The only sects of Judaism that remained were the Pharisees and the Christians. The Pharisees became Rabbinic Judaism that we know today. By the second century CE the remaining Pharisaic Jews kicked out all remaining Christians from the synagogues leaving the Christians to simply worship on Sunday. After that, most of the Christians were of Gentile descent and felt no need to worship on Saturday. All of the original, Jewish-born apostles and early Christians were deceased so any reverence for maintaining the old Jew laws gone. Christians were happy with taking the sacrament on Sunday, the day they commemorated with the resurrection of Jesus. Paul spends a lot of his letters trying to avoid a schism of Christianity where it breaks into Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians.

Some of the older sects of Christianity like the Greek Orthodox still have elements of the Jewish synagogue service in their Sunday liturgy as a small reminder of their heritage. Two thousand years of Christian saints and scholars have not seen any reason to resume Saturday worship except for the Seventh Day Adventists and a few other groups.

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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by dogbite » Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:05 pm

You might also find Spong's Biblical Literalism: A Gentile Heresy informative for another take on similar topics.

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Bonfire
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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by Bonfire » Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:42 am

Saturday worship is doing nothing.
Deuteronomy 5:14 wrote:But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
I cannot imagine how a synagogue gathering would align with God's commandment to rest from all labor, including the folks at the gas stations and such. What is so difficult about doing nothing?

Make some sandwiches on Friday and take it easy all Saturday. Kick back and play some music, enjoy a good book, rest your weary head, spend time with your kids, use your imagination, and enjoy what you have without seeking more. If you have lessons on Sunday or ministering work to perform, prepare the Sunday prior or any other weekday. Take it easy on Saturday. That's what God wants and the message is repeated a lot in the Bible so treat yourself to some rest before Sunday reunion.
“Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God; “For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him” (D&C 18:10–11).

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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by dogbite » Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:21 am

If that's what you want, great.

But what if we don't particularly care about the issue at all? I mean, why should we?

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Linked
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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by Linked » Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:28 pm

Bonfire wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:42 am
...What is so difficult about doing nothing?

...Take it easy on Saturday. That's what God wants and the message is repeated a lot in the Bible so treat yourself to some rest before Sunday reunion.
The opportunity cost of doing nothing can be pretty high. That's 1/7th of my life that I could spend relaxing in my way or accomplishing something important to me.

As far as the Bible goes, I don't see it as an authority on what God thinks, so what it tells me to do is meaningless to me. And none of us need you to tell us what to do.
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stealthbishop
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Re: Saturday Sabbath

Post by stealthbishop » Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:59 am

Bonfire wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:42 am
Saturday worship is doing nothing.
Deuteronomy 5:14 wrote:But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
I cannot imagine how a synagogue gathering would align with God's commandment to rest from all labor, including the folks at the gas stations and such. What is so difficult about doing nothing?

Make some sandwiches on Friday and take it easy all Saturday. Kick back and play some music, enjoy a good book, rest your weary head, spend time with your kids, use your imagination, and enjoy what you have without seeking more. If you have lessons on Sunday or ministering work to perform, prepare the Sunday prior or any other weekday. Take it easy on Saturday. That's what God wants and the message is repeated a lot in the Bible so treat yourself to some rest before Sunday reunion.
I think every person since the time that this scripture or principle was created has their own interpretation of what "work" means and what "rest" means. This has been debated in Judaism and Christianity for MILLENNIA! The problem I have is when ANY HUMAN ON THIS PLANET tries to interpret what is best for me or what rest is for me. I agree with the principle. What I don't agree with is the fundamentalism that creates all kinds of interpretations for diverse human beings or forces them to abide by how they interpret this. I also know we live in a pluralistic society with freedom of religion and freedom from religion. This might have worked in a theocracy with a Judaic king millennia ago but it does not work in a Republic with freedom of religion. People have different sabbaths or no sabbaths.
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Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

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