NOM

I was curious as to the reason God would want to take away your loved ones or break up your family if you are not Mormon.

Any thoughts on what would be God's motivation, or if this is a self-serving notion from LDS HQ?

It's also interesting to speculate on the exact mechanism of that separation. Presumably, if someone were to try to make an unsanctioned visit a family member they could not be threatened with physical harm. Is it just too far and you don't get a space bus ticket? Or is it another dimension you can't phase into? Or can you be confined or kept out with a physical barrier of some type?

The way I understand it, everyone in the celestial kingdom will be walking around in their garments. So anyone from a lower kingdom will be noticed pretty damn quick!

Possibly all mesh with the 60’s style butt flap.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:26 am

The way I understand it, everyone in the celestial kingdom will be walking around in their garments. So anyone from a lower kingdom will be noticed pretty damn quick!

Possibly all mesh with the 60’s style butt flap.

This makes sense with the recent survey on garments.

Everyone will be herded around by angels with flaming cattle prods that prevent you from visiting your unworthy relatives and force you to have sex with the spouses that were taken away from those relatives and given to you.

Ghost wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:07 am

It's also interesting to speculate on the exact mechanism of that separation. Presumably, if someone were to try to make an unsanctioned visit a family member they could not be threatened with physical harm. Is it just too far and you don't get a space bus ticket? Or is it another dimension you can't phase into? Or can you be confined or kept out with a physical barrier of some type?

I remember some consistent, widespread Mormon folklore that says you can make visits downward, but not upward. Higher kingdoms are just too darn glorious I guess.

I'm pretty sure the people in higher kingdoms have to be just as glorious as their kingdoms. Too glorious for the common folk in lower kingdoms to actually live with. They'd immediately be burned to a crisp.

So clearly, the ones from higher kingdoms have to hide all their glorious glory before they visit lower kingdoms. So why not live there? Maybe they have too many glorious things to do in their higher kingdom, like bearing billions of celestial tadpoles. Maybe it's not feasible to wear telestial blackface all the time. Who knows?

moksha wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:06 am

I was curious as to the reason God would want to take away your loved ones or break up your family if you are not Mormon.

Any thoughts on what would be God's motivation, or if this is a self-serving notion from LDS HQ?

My sense is that it is a residual of Augustinian/Calvinist theology of a psychopathic god who has billions of people created but is offended so terribly by original sin that his sovereignty is in question and so he ends up torturing billions of people for eternity and predetermining to save a very limited few. There needs to be some type of punishment apparently! So the modern orthodox LDS version softens this but still is ridiculous, irrational, and immoral.

I find this quote interesting:
Joseph used to say that he would have her (Emma Smith) hereafter, IF HE HAD TO GO TO HELL FOR HER, AND HE WILL HAVE TO GO TO HELL FOR HER AS SURE AS HE EVER GETS HER." Brigham Young. (Journal of Discourses, Volume 17, page 159)

Maybe if you are a prophet God gives you special privileges, like bringing people up from lower kingdoms. This quote makes it seem like Joseph thought so, and maybe Brigham did too.

deacon blues wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:39 pm

I find this quote interesting:
Joseph used to say that he would have her (Emma Smith) hereafter, IF HE HAD TO GO TO HELL FOR HER, AND HE WILL HAVE TO GO TO HELL FOR HER AS SURE AS HE EVER GETS HER." Brigham Young. (Journal of Discourses, Volume 17, page 159)

Maybe if you are a prophet God gives you special privileges, like bringing people up from lower kingdoms. This quote makes it seem like Joseph thought so, and maybe Brigham did too.

Maybe Emma will have to go to hell to get Joseph. I don't think she will do that.

deacon blues wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:39 pm

I find this quote interesting:
Joseph used to say that he would have her (Emma Smith) hereafter, IF HE HAD TO GO TO HELL FOR HER, AND HE WILL HAVE TO GO TO HELL FOR HER AS SURE AS HE EVER GETS HER." Brigham Young. (Journal of Discourses, Volume 17, page 159)

Maybe if you are a prophet God gives you special privileges, like bringing people up from lower kingdoms. This quote makes it seem like Joseph thought so, and maybe Brigham did too.

I always figured this was Brigham and Joseph's b.s. hyperbole when frustrated by Emma. (if Joseph really said that. I don't trust Brigham's "recollections.")

Brigham would have said this as a not so subtle way of telling his listeners that Emma was in hell because she wouldn't come west with the saints and fully support the Brighamite branch of the church. Must have really galled him.

Joseph did say this about sealings.
March 11, 1844: "Joseph /W.W. Journal: Again the doctrine or sealing power of Elijah is as follows: if you have power to seal on earth & in heaven then we should be crafty. (changed to wise in HC:6, p. 253) The first thing you do go & seal on earth your sons & your daughters unto yourself and yourself unto your fathers in eternal glory & go ahead and not go back but use a little craftiness and seal all you can and when you get to heaven tell your father what you seal on earth should be sealed in heaven. I will walk through the gate of heaven and Claim what I seal and those that follow me and my counsel."
On odd number days I believe Joseph convinced himself he had all that power. On those days I believe Joseph really believed he could tell God what to do.
On even number days I believe Joseph was a crafty, blustering fraud. He just acted as if he had all that power.

But I could be wrong.

deacon blues wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:19 pm

Joseph did say this about sealings.
March 11, 1844: "Joseph /W.W. Journal: Again the doctrine or sealing power of Elijah is as follows: if you have power to seal on earth & in heaven then we should be crafty. (changed to wise in HC:6, p. 253) The first thing you do go & seal on earth your sons & your daughters unto yourself and yourself unto your fathers in eternal glory & go ahead and not go back but use a little craftiness and seal all you can and when you get to heaven tell your father what you seal on earth should be sealed in heaven. I will walk through the gate of heaven and Claim what I seal and those that follow me and my counsel."
On odd number days I believe Joseph convinced himself he had all that power. On those days I believe Joseph really believed he could tell God what to do.
On even number days I believe Joseph was a crafty, blustering fraud. He just acted as if he had all that power.

But I could be wrong.

He's like that drawing that can either be a young woman or an old woman. Your brain flips between the two interpretations on its own whims.

Trying to remember. I think I read the extract of the diary here on nom about the young lady invited to Nauvoo to visit her relatives for a few months.

Wrote down her impressions of Joseph.

A good synopsis would be that she thought he was a crafty, bloviating, overgrown ego.

Pretty astute I think.

deacon blues wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:19 pm

Joseph did say this about sealings.
March 11, 1844: "Joseph /W.W. Journal: Again the doctrine or sealing power of Elijah is as follows: if you have power to seal on earth & in heaven then we should be crafty. (changed to wise in HC:6, p. 253) The first thing you do go & seal on earth your sons & your daughters unto yourself and yourself unto your fathers in eternal glory & go ahead and not go back but use a little craftiness and seal all you can and when you get to heaven tell your father what you seal on earth should be sealed in heaven. I will walk through the gate of heaven and Claim what I seal and those that follow me and my counsel."
On odd number days I believe Joseph convinced himself he had all that power. On those days I believe Joseph really believed he could tell God what to do.
On even number days I believe Joseph was a crafty, blustering fraud. He just acted as if he had all that power.

But I could be wrong.

Doesn't the whole thing just sound like a load of crap though? I mean regardless of what Joseph did or didn't think of himself, I can't see why grown adults would actually buy in to such a hot mess.

moksha wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:06 am

I was curious as to the reason God would want to take away your loved ones or break up your family if you are not Mormon.

Any thoughts on what would be God's motivation, or if this is a self-serving notion from LDS HQ?

This was actually one of the first discussions I had with my ex wife after my shelf had thoroughly broken.

If my father and I decided to hang out together in the telestial kingdom, why would God stop us? Or two people that are married, and end up in the terrestrial kingdom, what would stop them from living together? Or two best friends from living next to each other?

To me the answer is simple-forever familes is a powerful message and being in control of that eternal family gives the church all the power. If you want to be together after this life, pay tithing, be a good Mormon.

My father was in the process of leaving the church when my youngest sister was getting sealed in the temple, but he wasn't fully out. He went to the bishop to request a recommend so he could attend. The bishop said yes, but he needed to catch up on tithing since he hadn't paid any inna couple years. My father is a well off physician making over 300,000 a year.

He paid and was at the sealing,. He's out now, and still bitter about that 30k ransom paid to attend his daughters wedding.

Lloyd Christmas wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:21 am

To me the answer is simple-forever familes is a powerful message and being in control of that eternal family gives the church all the power. If you want to be together after this life, pay tithing, be a good Mormon.

Spiritual coercion at it's finest....

And this is the same spiritual arm twisting Joseph used to get 14 year old Helen M. Kimball to be a plural wife.

"Marry me and I'll write you and all your family a guaranteed ticket to the CK. You do want to go to the CK don't you?"

What a bastard.....

You can thank Stephen King, but when we talk about people floating around, this is what comes to mind.



That really changes my opinion on an afterlife. If we are floating like, that, I'll take oblivion.

I find it so hypocritical how the church runs around saying they are the most family oriented church. In reality their doctrine is anything but family friendly. There will be few if any intact families in heaven. I personally can not think of any family where every member is so perfect to make it to the Celestial Kingdom.

1smartdodog wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:16 pm

I find it so hypocritical how the church runs around saying they are the most family oriented church. In reality their doctrine is anything but family friendly. There will be few if any intact families in heaven. I personally can not think of any family where every member is so perfect to make it to the Celestial Kingdom.

I cannot think of any kind of family that could possibly be together in the hereafter, by Mormon requirements and expectations.

Won't your parents be with their parents? Won't your children be with their spouses and children? The only way to guarantee that you will have your ideal nuclear family in the next life is to ensure not only that you, your spouse, and your children are perfect CK candidates, but also that neither of your parents make it to the CK, nor do your daughters-in-law and sons-in-law, or your grandchildren.

Only then can you have the happy forever family seen in church films and brochures. If any of those people slip through the cracks into the CK they will either tear your nuclear family apart or they will have to be denied their own.

Sandra Tanner said something profound in her interview with John Dehlin the other day. She said something like: "I think heaven is like a giant family reunion, we are together with all our brothers and sisters." The LDS heaven is more like a hospital or jail, where it seems like we are separated except during visiting hours.
To me, an eternal family reunion seems like too much of a good thing anyway.