NOM

I'm listening to Denver Snuffer on Mormonism live and enjoying a lot of what he has to say. I get a sense of sincerity that I don't get from ANY of the COB guys, that Snuffer has actually had some sort of mystical experience. I say that because he is saying things that fit the pattern of people who have had what might be called an enlightenment experience; a deep insight that produces a worldview of interconnectedness and oneness with God (or whatever name you attach to the Big Something) that denies authority and hierarchy. Snuffer frames it in terms of Jesus and Joseph Smith, but if he came from another tradition I suspect he would be using different terminology for the same ideas. Here's an example from the podcast that demonstrates what I mean. He's talking about how authority is meaningless, and that it doesn't matter what church you happen to find yourself in:

People are best benefited when the religion lives in them. When the fire gets ignited in their own hearts. When they can look around in this world and they can see the fingerprints of God everywhere, and the wonder of this creation, and to feel like they have a spark of the divine in themselves as well. To say, “there’s a lot that God has done with me,” distracts more than it contributes. If instead you can say “there’s a spark of the divine that’s within you that is actually connected to God,” and if you can find the peace within you to allow that still small voice to actually be heard, you will find an amazing thing about the value of, not only yourself, but every individual that’s walking on the planet, and that we are all interconnected to one another through that divine spark.

A mystic from another faith tradition might say the same kinds of things, but certainly wouldn't interpret it in terms of Jesus and Joseph Smith. Someone from outside of the Abrahamic worldview might replace "God" with "Nature" or "Gaia" or something, and "still small voice" with "the god within."

There was a time in my Mormon struggle when this would have appealed to me, but at the same time it's unlikely that I would have given the time of day to an apostate like Denver Snuffer, who didn't have Salt Lake Elohim's Stamp of Approval.

Now I guess we just wait and see where his road forks; will he get crucified or will he start marrying teenagers? Or maybe tied up and tossed into the trunk of a car registered to Kirton and McConkie.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:22 am

Snuffer frames it in terms of Jesus and Joseph Smith...

People are best benefited when the religion lives in them. When the fire gets ignited in their own hearts. When they can look around in this world and they can see the fingerprints of God everywhere, and the wonder of this creation, and to feel like they have a spark of the divine in themselves as well. To say, “there’s a lot that God has done with me,” distracts more than it contributes. If instead you can say “there’s a spark of the divine that’s within you that is actually connected to God,” and if you can find the peace within you to allow that still small voice to actually be heard, you will find an amazing thing about the value of, not only yourself, but every individual that’s walking on the planet, and that we are all interconnected to one another through that divine spark.

On one level this does have a certain appeal and in some ways may have a more "all inclusive" feel to it. Especially when compared to the dogmatic implications of exclusivity that Mormon "doctrines" carry. But to me it carries a lot of naivete regarding his understanding of the actual relationship between God and the Creation.

Plus anyone framing such a worldview in terms of Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith being somehow interconnected in a symbiotic way has failed to recognize or assess Joseph's true standing in the lineup of men actually called of God to speak His words.

Doesn't Snuffer then become a Joseph Smith derivative even if improved?

What you describe Snuffer as saying sounds similar to most shamanic teachings that are found in almost all cultures and pre-date Christianity as well as all other organized religions. It’s unfortunate that somewhere along the line in the development of human civilization people discovered the power of turning spirituality into an organized hierarchy that collects money and dictates how spirituality is practised.

I read a book on shamanic teachings that showed me how remarkably similar all primitive belief systems are throughout the world. Independent of each other Polynesians, Scandinavians, Druids, Native Americans, African tribes etc… developed similar individual based spiritual beliefs that eventually got swallowed up by power hungry organized religion.

In case you missed the link to the Denver Snuffer podcast, here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTwiKfYO6GM&t=2s

Kudos to RFM for reaching out to Denver.

Palerider wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:49 pm

Plus anyone framing such a worldview in terms of Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith being somehow interconnected in a symbiotic way has failed to recognize or assess Joseph's true standing in the lineup of men actually called of God to speak His words.

Doesn't Snuffer then become a Joseph Smith derivative even if improved?

I totally agree. If Snuffer could keep the stuff I quoted and sever his ties with Joseph Smith he might really get somewhere. But then, of course, he would disappoint his followers and they would abandon him.

Zeezrom wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:54 pm

I read a book on shamanic teachings that showed me how remarkably similar all primitive belief systems are throughout the world. Independent of each other Polynesians, Scandinavians, Druids, Native Americans, African tribes etc… developed similar individual based spiritual beliefs that eventually got swallowed up by power hungry organized religion.

Exactly. I try not to think of any belief systems as primitive, because I think some of them are just less cluttered, or differently cluttered, than later traditions. But at the same time I have a hard time finding a more appropriate word than primitive.

If you strip away all of the gods, demons, prophets, edifices, and social clubs from a religion it seems to me that you end up with one of two things. Many will be very similar to each other because they spring from the same original source deep in our common brain (or the cosmos), and some will be empty or empty-ish shells. The more authority-driven they are, the less they actually have to offer the individual once you stop worshipping the leaders and buildings.

I have mentioned before that there have been numerous brain scan studies showing that the mystical state is the neurologically identical whether you get there via meditation, shamanic breathing, fasting, Pentecostal holy rolling, magic mushrooms, etc. Assuming Denver Snuffer opened that door, I wonder what techniques he used.

I also wonder exactly what went on between Joseph Smith and the Three Witnesses that produced the desired effect.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:09 am

Palerider wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:49 pm

Plus anyone framing such a worldview in terms of Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith being somehow interconnected in a symbiotic way has failed to recognize or assess Joseph's true standing in the lineup of men actually called of God to speak His words.

Doesn't Snuffer then become a Joseph Smith derivative even if improved?

I totally agree. If Snuffer could keep the stuff I quoted and sever his ties with Joseph Smith he might really get somewhere. But then, of course, he would disappoint his followers and they would abandon him.

Isn't Snuffer one of those folks who "believes" that Joseph never practiced polygamy?

If so, he lives in an alternate reality where his version of Joseph is akin to Jesus ("his" version of Jesus, of course.)

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:46 am

Isn't Snuffer one of those folks who "believes" that Joseph never practiced polygamy?

I think so. I became quite a bit more disillusioned with Snuffer after I listened to the rest of the interview. He has difficulty sounding as openminded when he has to answer sticky questions. He mentioned that he wrote a book of apologetics for the Book of Abraham. To me that's like fighting smoke and mirrors with more smoke and mirrors. He also had a really hard time answering Bill's questions about LGBTQ members and did the same kind of song and dance as the Q15. We love you and accept you, despite your "aberrations," problems," and "quirks." Still, he said he could think of no reason that a gay man can't perform a priesthood ordinance if he is monogamously committed to his partner. Women no. But interestingly, all of his church's disciplinary actions, including removing a man's priesthood, are performed entirely by women. He says he doesn't believe in authority and keys, but apparently priesthood is still necessary and is only available to men. Sounds like authority and keys to me.

Zeezrom wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:54 pm

What you describe Snuffer as saying sounds similar to most shamanic teachings that are found in almost all cultures and pre-date Christianity as well as all other organized religions. It’s unfortunate that somewhere along the line in the development of human civilization people discovered the power of turning spirituality into an organized hierarchy that collects money and dictates how spirituality is practised.

I read a book on shamanic teachings that showed me how remarkably similar all primitive belief systems are throughout the world. Independent of each other Polynesians, Scandinavians, Druids, Native Americans, African tribes etc… developed similar individual based spiritual beliefs that eventually got swallowed up by power hungry organized religion.

Yes, reminded me of an Alan Watts talk on Hinduism. People search for old documents, like the dead sea scrolls. The oldest religious texts and traditions were onto something

https://youtu.be/HGvZ7cHpbgw

Angel wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:19 pm

Yes, reminded me of an Alan Watts talk on Hinduism. People search for old documents, like the dead sea scrolls. The oldest religious texts and traditions were onto something

And that something, more often than not, included the use of mind-altering substances. From the most ancient written scripture: "We have drunk the soma; we have become immortal; we have gone to the light; we have found the gods" (Rigveda 8.43.3).

Alan Watts is awesome. I haven't listened to that one. Thanks for the link, Angel!

I’m still fearful or leery of religion. Religion tends to suck you in with platitudes that are appealing to the human senses, and then ask you for money and to sleep with your wife.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:30 am

And that something, more often than not, included the use of mind-altering substances. From the most ancient written scripture: "We have drunk the soma; we have become immortal; we have gone to the light; we have found the gods" (Rigveda 8.43.3).

While touring the Actun Tunichil Muknal cave, our "progressive" local guide told us about his parents and grandparents - they refused to go in the cave, saw it as cursed, were disappointed in their son who did not follow their family's ancient traditions. He showed us the little fire bowls where everyone else did drugs, where they saw faces in the smoke. Our guide, he left his family's religious beliefs too - was not scared to go in the cave, made a great living at going into the cave.

I have done shrooms with people from the Quechan tribe. I too saw faces in the smoke. I experienced all of it - more than just hallucinations, all 5 senses and a mind trip - feel, see, touch, taste, smell. There was an illusion of clairvoyance, but when trying to do math homework, I realized it was not real - my mind was not actually working well.

I have also experienced dissociation through trauma rather than drugs... I saw religion as an escape, but it was not an escape - enter betrayal trauma, and court cases, and new places to be triggered in.

In my programming class, I have everyone write pseudocode - an algorithm for a chunk of their day. We joke - is there anything you do that a robot could not be programmed to do? Name one thing that could not have been created in a program - haha.

Organized Religion could be compared to fire: It is a powerful and yet destructive force. Humankind has harnessed fire quite well. I don't think it has done as well with organized religion. Not yet, anyway.

Snuffer seemed to really be tap dancing when they asked for his position on homosexuality. I took his answer to mean that they actively disapprove of homosexual relationships.

Snufferism might be better in some respects but it is still a bunch of people pretending to know things they don't and causing harm in the process.

It's a recurring theme in humanity. He's just another Don Quixote.

moksha wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:58 pm

In case you missed the link to the Denver Snuffer podcast, here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTwiKfYO6GM&t=2s

Kudos to RFM for reaching out to Denver.

Thanks for the link. Thanks for the OP. I'm going to check this out. I find Snuffer (and this movement within Mormonism) to be quite fascinating.

2bizE wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:07 pm

I’m still fearful or leery of religion. Religion tends to suck you in with platitudes that are appealing to the human senses, and then ask you for money and to sleep with your wife.

Yup. Once you see this pattern it’s hard to unsee.

It’s a matter of time before Snuffer introduces the next phase of his restoration movement.

The question is…

How do you get into the ground floor level of a sex cult? You know before it all falls apart and the leader gets martyred, arrested, or suicided?

Red Ryder wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:12 am

2bizE wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:07 pm

I’m still fearful or leery of religion. Religion tends to suck you in with platitudes that are appealing to the human senses, and then ask you for money and to sleep with your wife.

Yup. Once you see this pattern it’s hard to unsee.

It’s a matter of time before Snuffer introduces the next phase of his restoration movement.

The question is…

How do you get into the ground floor level of a sex cult? You know before it all falls apart and the leader gets martyred, arrested, or suicided?

I think I have some neighbors who have become Snuffer-ites, so... I hope the last sentence in the quote doesn't "come to pass."

But... There is that pattern.

I don't think Snufferism as a movement is probably not sustainable in its current form that could pose any real threat to The Church.

Will it congeal into just another bossy religion or will it peter out? One thing for certain is that people are starting to realize they're not going to get visits from Jesus and angels like Denver leads them to expect. But then they are accustomed to the Mormon Way of overpromising, underdelivering, and pretending that the emperor's junk isn't on display.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:56 am

I don't think Snufferism as a movement is probably not sustainable in its current form that could pose any real threat to The Church.

Will it congeal into just another bossy religion or will it peter out? One thing for certain is that people are starting to realize they're not going to get visits from Jesus and angels like Denver leads them to expect. But then they are accustomed to the Mormon Way of overpromising, underdelivering, and pretending that the emperor's junk isn't on display.

This is the interesting thing about it or one of the interesting things. He is very anti-authority and hierarchy which most of us see as a good thing. But without building up institutions with hierarchy or at least leadership does a movement "snuff" itself out? Interesting.

I also think that deep fasting and prayer can lead some people to have powerful "spiritual experiences" much like people who use psychedelics. Human beings have been having these experiences since the cognitive revolution of our Homo Sapien (et al.) ancestors. While many will never have one, it is not uncommon under the right circumstances. Denver is obviously one of those people and perhaps his way and methods can induce such things.

stealthbishop wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:50 am

I also think that deep fasting and prayer can lead some people to have powerful "spiritual experiences" much like people who use psychedelics. Human beings have been having these experiences since the cognitive revolution of our Homo Sapien (et al.) ancestors. While many will never have one, it is not uncommon under the right circumstances. Denver is obviously one of those people and perhaps his way and methods can induce such things.

Those are some great points, Stealth. I have been studying the brain science of mystical experience lately, and it appears that humans have universal access to these kinds of experiences, regardless of their particular religious framework. Brazilian automatic-writing mediums and Pentecostals carried away in the spirit are having genuine altered consciousness experiences, just like experienced meditators and trance-consumed mystics, as demonstrated brain scans of people while in those states. Fasting, along with isolation, or chanting, or deeply meditative prayer can definitely get you there. FWIW, I have encountered Jesus twice while using a certain "sacrament." I recognized it as the product of the trickster in my own mind, and found it humorous, but I can see how someone who was prepped for the experience by a trusted religious figure and led to believe they had actually experienced a visitation from Jesus could take it at face value. Just think how special you would feel, and how certain of your beliefs, if Jesus showed up to give you an atta-boy.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:54 pm

stealthbishop wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:50 am

I also think that deep fasting and prayer can lead some people to have powerful "spiritual experiences" much like people who use psychedelics. Human beings have been having these experiences since the cognitive revolution of our Homo Sapien (et al.) ancestors. While many will never have one, it is not uncommon under the right circumstances. Denver is obviously one of those people and perhaps his way and methods can induce such things.

Those are some great points, Stealth. I have been studying the brain science of mystical experience lately, and it appears that humans have universal access to these kinds of experiences, regardless of their particular religious framework. Brazilian automatic-writing mediums and Pentecostals carried away in the spirit are having genuine altered consciousness experiences, just like experienced meditators and trance-consumed mystics, as demonstrated brain scans of people while in those states. Fasting, along with isolation, or chanting, or deeply meditative prayer can definitely get you there. FWIW, I have encountered Jesus twice while using a certain "sacrament." I recognized it as the product of the trickster in my own mind, and found it humorous, but I can see how someone who was prepped for the experience by a trusted religious figure and led to believe they had actually experienced a visitation from Jesus could take it at face value. Just think how special you would feel, and how certain of your beliefs, if Jesus showed up to give you an atta-boy.

100%

I think it's hard for people when they have never had anything like this happen to them and sometimes in religious environments they feel like something is wrong with them. Some people, (with good reason) are skeptical and cynical of such things which is completely understandable since it can be used as a tool of manipulation. And some people are likely wired to be more receptive to "spiritual experiences" is my guess and some people aren't. One thing that likely is a constant is that these "spiritual experiences" tend to confirm the path that they are on or help to illuminate a certain pathway and naturally whatever the path is--it's seen as correct and right especially when the experience is an ennobling one.