Unwillingness to Apologize

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moksha
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Unwillingness to Apologize

Post by moksha » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:11 am

Is the Church's unwillingness to apologize for errors a function of arrogance or evil?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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alas
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Re: Unwillingness to Apologize

Post by alas » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:48 am

moksha wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:11 am
Is the Church's unwillingness to apologize for errors a function of arrogance or evil?
Well, since arrogance is one form of evil, yes. But I think it is both arrogance and fear. Arrogance in that they think they don’t make mistakes, that God is really behind everything they do. Sort of like what’s his stupid face who told his son that going down the wrong rode first was an answer to prayer because now they knew they were on the right road. So, the POX was not a mistake. It was …um…it was.

The other thing, fear, is fear of a couple of things. One is that if they admit mistakes that will undermine the confidence in the leaders infallibility. And second is fear that they might get sued if they admit that interviewing teenagers behind closed doors is not really God wanting it done. Or admitting that a child being sexually abused at primary could have anything to do with the way primary is staffed, would leave them open to a lawsuit. Over on Feminist Mormon Housewives there is an o-l-d post about how church lawyers instructed primary workers to talk to authorities investigating a case of child sexual abuse. They were instructed to essentially take personal responsibility for how primary was run, rather than saying “we were taught by the church to do it this way,” it should be “in this ward we do it this way.” Always to make it sound like their own personal fault instead of the church having bad policies in place.

dogbite
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Re: Unwillingness to Apologize

Post by dogbite » Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:02 am

You can't claim you receive revelation if you have to apologize. It means you were wrong.

Being wrong will further open you up to deep pocket lawsuits. Worse than a payout, lawsuits open you up to discovery, where all kinds of things can come to light the church wants to keep hidden. And might feed still further lawsuits and even wider discovery.

There is no benefit to the church to ever apologize. And it's all about what benefits them.

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moksha
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Re: Unwillingness to Apologize

Post by moksha » Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:33 am

dogbite wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:02 am
There is no benefit to the church to ever apologize. And it's all about what benefits them.
Should that be included in lessons on repentance teaching, that we should avoid apologies to escape responsibility, especially financial compensation? Perhaps this could be part of a new no-fault covenant.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Unwillingness to Apologize

Post by Hagoth » Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:32 pm

moksha wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:33 am
dogbite wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:02 am
There is no benefit to the church to ever apologize. And it's all about what benefits them.
Should that be included in lessons on repentance teaching, that we should avoid apologies to escape responsibility, especially financial compensation? Perhaps this could be part of a new no-fault covenant.
I wonder what kind of people the church would produce if the First Principle of the Gospel was: Do as the church does, not as it says.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Palerider
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Re: Unwillingness to Apologize

Post by Palerider » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:48 pm

moksha wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:11 am
Is the Church's unwillingness to apologize for errors a function of arrogance or evil?
One has to be able to admit an error in the first place before they see the need for an apology. Since the church will admit no errors, what is there to apologize for???

They may give lip service to "someone" in the past making a mistake but they refuse to say who it was or what it was that was done wrong. They do this only in order to fend off accusations of presenting themselves as infallible.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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nibbler
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Re: Unwillingness to Apologize

Post by nibbler » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:38 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:32 pm
I wonder what kind of people the church would produce if the First Principle of the Gospel was: Do as the church does, not as it says.
Hate to break it to you, but you're assigned to clean my toilets this Saturday at 8:00AM.

If you can't make it, you have the responsibility of finding a replacement.
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

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Hagoth
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Re: Unwillingness to Apologize

Post by Hagoth » Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:08 am

nibbler wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:38 am
Hagoth wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:32 pm
I wonder what kind of people the church would produce if the First Principle of the Gospel was: Do as the church does, not as it says.
Hate to break it to you, but you're assigned to clean my toilets this Saturday at 8:00AM.

If you can't make it, you have the responsibility of finding a replacement.
I neither give nor accept toilet cleaning assignments. If you have a problem with that, remember, we never criticize our NOM associates, even if the criticism is true.

p.s. the thing about not giving assignments was a carefully worded denial. See you at my house next Saturday.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Palerider
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Re: Unwillingness to Apologize

Post by Palerider » Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:05 pm

So, I've been doing a little research on this and I think I've at least scratched the surface of why the church never apologizes but only uses the term "regret".

An apology can be perceived legally as an admission of guilt which then can be used to extract restoration through the courts.

I haven't read this entire article. I will leave that to those who want to wade through the extent of the paper but I did copy the Abstract for some insight as to the direction the paper is going:

THE LEGAL CONSEQUENCES OF APOLOGIZING

"Abstract
This article discusses the legal consequences of saying you are sorry, whether as an apology or an expression of sympathy. It discusses questions such as whether an apology is understood to be an admission of guilt, whether an apology fulfills any elements of a tort, how an apology can be useful for avoiding litigation, how an expression of sympathy should be worded to minimize the possibility that it could be misunderstood to be an admission of guilt, and why someone who is guilty of some error should apologize without concern that this would make their situation worse. It analyzes various apologies in the context of medical malpractice, attorney discipline, and correcting mistakes at trial."


I think the church is absolutely playing it safe by picking words and terms it will and will not use in cases where it may have been in error. They're guarding the "nest egg".

As I've stayed before, the church is worse than the Mafia when it comes to how they use and/or protect their money.... 🤑
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

Reuben
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Re: Unwillingness to Apologize

Post by Reuben » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:16 pm

I think it's got to be more than legal liability. If it were only liability keeping the church from apologizing, it could still make some moves toward reconciliation. But it never does that.

My condition for considering activity is that the church learn how to repent. I don't think it'll ever meet this condition.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Palerider
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Re: Unwillingness to Apologize

Post by Palerider » Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:55 pm

Reuben wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:16 pm
I think it's got to be more than legal liability. If it were only liability keeping the church from apologizing, it could still make some moves toward reconciliation. But it never does that.

My condition for considering activity is that the church learn how to repent. I don't think it'll ever meet this condition.

I think the church's move to build a monument at Mountain Meadows and make an "almost apology" there was an effort at reconciliation with the descendants of the massacre. It may have been politically (socially?) motivated to shore up their public reputation but it was still an expression of "regret" (which is the word used by Eyring).

Were you thinking more of a reconciliation with non-believers or post-mormons? In that case I believe you are correct. It would take a number of generations passing before leadership will feel safe enough to admit the mistakes of their predecessors.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Angel
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Re: Unwillingness to Apologize

Post by Angel » Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:12 pm

Actual Christianity: No borrowed light, no leaning on arms of flesh, faith in God not pharisees - apostles in the NT all messed up, could not heal, could not walk on water, could not stay awake one hour, denied Christ - and they recorded their mistakes in the Bible for all to see, and we all love the NT apostles because they were honest humble humans.

Fake priestcraft - pay to enter temple, vow to sustain church leader to enter temple, vote how church tells you, racist, sexist, homophobic white man's kingdom.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Palerider
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Re: Unwillingness to Apologize

Post by Palerider » Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:36 pm

Angel wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:12 pm
Actual Christianity: No borrowed light, no leaning on arms of flesh, faith in God not pharisees - apostles in the NT all messed up, could not heal, could not walk on water, could not stay awake one hour, denied Christ - and they recorded their mistakes in the Bible for all to see, and we all love the NT apostles because they were honest humble humans.

Fake priestcraft - pay to enter temple, vow to sustain church leader to enter temple, vote how church tells you, racist, sexist, homophobic white man's kingdom.

This goes hand in hand with:

Original Apostles became witnesses of resurrected Christ. Mary Magdalene saw resurrected Christ. Paul saw resurrected Christ. All of them testified of seeing Christ as recorded in Biblical scripture.

Modern LDS apostles:

We can't say anything.... it's too sacred.....but we're still witnesses! :roll:
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Yobispo
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Re: Unwillingness to Apologize

Post by Yobispo » Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:24 am

Palerider wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:36 pm
Angel wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:12 pm
Actual Christianity: No borrowed light, no leaning on arms of flesh, faith in God not pharisees - apostles in the NT all messed up, could not heal, could not walk on water, could not stay awake one hour, denied Christ - and they recorded their mistakes in the Bible for all to see, and we all love the NT apostles because they were honest humble humans.

Fake priestcraft - pay to enter temple, vow to sustain church leader to enter temple, vote how church tells you, racist, sexist, homophobic white man's kingdom.

This goes hand in hand with:

Original Apostles became witnesses of resurrected Christ. Mary Magdalene saw resurrected Christ. Paul saw resurrected Christ. All of them testified of seeing Christ as recorded in Biblical scripture.

Modern LDS apostles:

We can't say anything.... it's too sacred.....but we're still witnesses! :roll:
They have redefined the word "witness", just like they have redefined faith to mean belief in spite of the evidence. Just trust us...

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stealthbishop
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Re: Unwillingness to Apologize

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:34 am

It's a good question. In addition to arrogant (which it is) and evil (which it leads to oftentimes), I would also add that it is part of typical corporate protocol to avoid liability. Since the church has VERY DEEP POCKETS as everyone knows, if they apologized for anything they could open themselves up to a multitude of lawsuits. So I would also add that there is a practical legal/liability mindset to the answer.

But as so many have articulated before, it is completely opposite to what they would expect individuals to do in the repentance process. So they have absolutely no credibility to preach repentance (or their view of it). ZERO CREDIBILITY. The historic Jesus would most certainly call them hypocrites. They would tell an individual that they need to accept the consequences of their actions irregardless, but they refuse to do that themselves.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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deacon blues
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Re: Unwillingness to Apologize

Post by deacon blues » Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:28 pm

In the Church was serious about repenting, specifically for MMM, they would explore how unquestioning obedience contributed to the tragedy, and then emphasize, or at least admit consistently that leaders can sometimes make mistakes.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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