New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

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deacon blues
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New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by deacon blues » Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:43 pm

I understand there is a fairly recent addition to the Gospel Topics essays. Check it out:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Palerider
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by Palerider » Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:16 pm

The intra-church arguments over BoM geography must be creating more friction than light. More division than unity. Time to put the hammer down.

So the upshot is; you are permitted to have your own opinion about where you think the BoM took place but KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT about it.

It's not important....

This is just another repudiation of the concept of empirical adequacy.

And if this is the approved line of reasoning, how do we really know that the BoM took place in the Americas at all? The BoM itself never actually identifies in a nominal way what continent the Lehites arrived on. For all we know, Lehi could have landed anywhere and then a 1000 years later, after finishing his record, Moroni could have transported the plates by boat to what is now New York.

After all just because you can't find any evidence that the BoM happened in Australia doesn't mean it didn't. Isn't this the same logic apologists use for excusing the lack of evidence here in America?

Maybe the Aborigines in Australia are the descendants of the Lamanites. They do have the dark skin curse, right? :oops:
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Hagoth
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by Hagoth » Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:05 am

The Church does not take a position on the specific geographic locations of Book of Mormon events in the ancient Americas. Speculation on the geography of the Book of Mormon may mislead instead of enlighten; such a study can be a distraction from its divine purpose.
Then maybe they should just enlighten us. Isn't it their job to keep us from being misled? Modern membership in the LDS church is a big game of trying to guess what the prophet would say if he were to say anything useful. Or at least explain why there is exactly as much evidence for an ancient American visit from Martians as there is for Lehites.

If you want any further light and knowledge I guess it's on you to hire a private detective to determine if more GAs have taken Book of Mormon tours in Mesoamerica or North America.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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jfro18
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by jfro18 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:15 am

They put this up a while back - I can't remember if it was last year or earlier when they put up a ton of gospel "topics" in addition to the essays? Either way they were kind of quietly tossed up so they seem new and, of course, are not set in stone (or given a an author's name) so they can change them as desired.

But yeah it's nonsensical - there are a handful of key issues the church was quite clear on that today they claim to "not take a position on."

You'd think with prophet, seers, and revelators we would be getting more clarity with time and not less.

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Yobispo
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by Yobispo » Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:37 am

So the church takes no formal position, but here's a quote from Joseph that shows he absolutely believed that the Nephites were in North America. Oh, and he also published a newspaper with an article saying the Aztecs were Nephites, even though the Aztecs lived around 1500 AD. But here's a Russell Nelson quote, and that is all you really need to know.

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Hagoth
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by Hagoth » Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:31 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:15 am
But yeah it's nonsensical - there are a handful of key issues the church was quite clear on that today they claim to "not take a position on."
Yeah, this is really lame. Joseph Smith made specific statements, but they do not take a position. Prophets have categorically denied biological evolution, most recently Russell Nelson hisownself, yet they do not take a position. All prophets up until Monson claimed Native Americans are Lamanites. A little bit of science shakes their foundation and now they do not take a position. It gets wearisome.

How far can their cluelessness go? "On the topic of whether God exists we do not take a position, but tithing, garments, meeting attendance, obedience to prophets, temples? Oh yeah, position taken!"
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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2bizE
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by 2bizE » Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:00 pm

I agree with this quote
“ Individuals may have their own opinions regarding Book of Mormon geography and other such matters about which the Lord has not spoken.”…my opinion is the BoM is fictional and there is no geography for it.
~2bizE

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blazerb
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by blazerb » Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:07 pm

2bizE wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:00 pm
I agree with this quote
“ Individuals may have their own opinions regarding Book of Mormon geography and other such matters about which the Lord has not spoken.”…my opinion is the BoM is fictional and there is no geography for it.
Has anyone listed the things that the Lord has spoken about? Because I remember being told that the Lord has spoken on this subject. I guess He changed his mind. Those pesky Lehites. How can God keep track of them, after all?

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moksha
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by moksha » Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:52 am

Shulem at Mormon Discussions had a wonderful thread in which he detailed why Joseph Smith was basing the BOM geography on the Delmar Penninsula. I will ask him which thread and post its link.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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moksha
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by moksha » Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:41 am

Shulem at Mormon Discussions had a wonderful thread in which he detailed why Joseph Smith was basing the BOM geography on the Delmar Penninsula.

Here is the link:

https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic. ... t=Delmarva
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Hagoth
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by Hagoth » Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:28 am

blazerb wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:07 pm
Has anyone listed the things that the Lord has spoken about? Because I remember being told that the Lord has spoken on this subject. I guess He changed his mind. Those pesky Lehites. How can God keep track of them, after all?
Well, He was laboring under the assumption that the North American Indians were THE Lamanites. Good thing his 21st century mouthpieces came along with an anonymous essay to deemphasize The Great Jehovah's opinion on that matter. I guess He hasn't given any more clarification on the matter because He's pretty embarrassed about what He said last time He opened His mouth about it:
-D&C 54:8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

-D&C 49:24 But before the great day of the Lord shall come, Jacob shall flourish in the wilderness, and the Lamanites shall blossom as the rose.

-D&C 28:14 And thou shalt assist to settle all these things, according to the covenants of the church, before thou shalt take thy journey among the Lamanites.

-D&C 19:27 Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom the Lamanites are a remnant, that they may believe the gospel, and look not for a Messiah to come who has already come.

-D&C 30:6 ...for I have given unto him power to build up my church among the Lamanites.

-D&C 28:9 ...and no man knoweth where the city of Zion shall be built, but it shall be given hereafter. Behold, I say unto you that it shall be on the borders by the Lamanites.

-D&C 32:2 ...he shall go with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.

-D&C 3:18 And this testimony shall come to the knowledge of the Lamanites, and the Lemuelites, and the Ishmaelites, who dwindle in unbelief because of the iniquity of their fathers…

-D&C 28:8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them;
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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stealthbishop
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by stealthbishop » Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:44 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:28 am
blazerb wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:07 pm
Has anyone listed the things that the Lord has spoken about? Because I remember being told that the Lord has spoken on this subject. I guess He changed his mind. Those pesky Lehites. How can God keep track of them, after all?
Well, He was laboring under the assumption that the North American Indians were THE Lamanites. Good thing his 21st century mouthpieces came along with an anonymous essay to deemphasize The Great Jehovah's opinion on that matter. I guess He hasn't given any more clarification on the matter because He's pretty embarrassed about what He said last time He opened His mouth about it:
-D&C 54:8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

-D&C 49:24 But before the great day of the Lord shall come, Jacob shall flourish in the wilderness, and the Lamanites shall blossom as the rose.

-D&C 28:14 And thou shalt assist to settle all these things, according to the covenants of the church, before thou shalt take thy journey among the Lamanites.

-D&C 19:27 Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom the Lamanites are a remnant, that they may believe the gospel, and look not for a Messiah to come who has already come.

-D&C 30:6 ...for I have given unto him power to build up my church among the Lamanites.

-D&C 28:9 ...and no man knoweth where the city of Zion shall be built, but it shall be given hereafter. Behold, I say unto you that it shall be on the borders by the Lamanites.

-D&C 32:2 ...he shall go with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.

-D&C 3:18 And this testimony shall come to the knowledge of the Lamanites, and the Lemuelites, and the Ishmaelites, who dwindle in unbelief because of the iniquity of their fathers…

-D&C 28:8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them;
EXACTLY!

Hard to get around scripture especially when it is taken literally as it was then and is now. They will continue to have problems with this issue for this very reason. Best they can do is to try to not draw attention to these scriptures which is what they have been doing (and perhaps this fig leaf essay will help) but they run the risk of traditional/ultra-orthodox LDS outflanking the leaders and even splitting off (eg. Snufferism etc).
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Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

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Hagoth
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by Hagoth » Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:16 pm

moksha wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:41 am
Shulem at Mormon Discussions had a wonderful thread in which he detailed why Joseph Smith was basing the BOM geography on the Delmar Penninsula.

Here is the link:

https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic. ... t=Delmarva
I only read about 10 of the 28 pages so far. It seems as good as anybody's hypothesis. Shulem would have them cheering in the isles at the BoM Evidence Conference if he kept his identity secret. He's speaking to all of the evidence the Heartlanders love. Then he'd need a police escort to escape once he told them his opinion about it.

Personally, I think Joseph started with a mental map of the entire hemisphere and then fleshed it out with local information from his environment. He has a large region of land that is surrounded in all directions by water (the ice up north as water on maps). Two major landmasses divided by a narrow neck. Large bodies of water up north and a desolate region above the narrow neck where they built with cement (adobe) due to lack of trees.

Then he adds descriptions of the Iroquois and their fortifications, cities inspired by the Native mounds, places that sound like the names of towns he would know, a special hill near his home that he mistook for a man-made artifact, etc. Much later he read about impressive ruined cities in Mesoamerica and added them to the mix.

Neither the Mesoamerican nor the Heartland limited geometry theories work fully because Joseph's own explanations don't strictly fit either, and kinda fits the hemispheric model but only generally. It's Middle Earth, American style.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by moksha » Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:40 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:16 pm
It's Middle Earth, American style.
Perhaps First Age Middle Earth before parts fell into the sea.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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2bizE
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by 2bizE » Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:55 pm

blazerb wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:07 pm
2bizE wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:00 pm
I agree with this quote
“ Individuals may have their own opinions regarding Book of Mormon geography and other such matters about which the Lord has not spoken.”…my opinion is the BoM is fictional and there is no geography for it.
Has anyone listed the things that the Lord has spoken about? Because I remember being told that the Lord has spoken on this subject. I guess He changed his mind. Those pesky Lehites. How can God keep track of them, after all?
God had all sorts of opinions on BoM geography until about 30 years ago….now he keeps his trap shut.
~2bizE

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Hagoth
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by Hagoth » Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:49 am

2bizE wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:55 pm
God had all sorts of opinions on BoM geography until about 30 years ago….now he keeps his trap shut.
Can you blame him after putting his foot in his mouth so many times? Really old people sometimes get confused and forget things.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Angel
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by Angel » Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:21 pm

Speaking of geography, I was chatting with someone from another faith about the 2nd coming -

Isa 11:10... In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.

Anyways, this other group of people has all these scriptures about the final battle being over in Israel - the last gathering to take place around the Mediterranean. I thought I remembered somewhere that JS was named "The Branch From Jesse"? When clearly all of this will take place in the middle East - NOT Americas.

What does the LDS church teach regarding things like Isa 11?
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Palerider
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by Palerider » Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:24 pm

Angel wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:21 pm
Speaking of geography, I was chatting with someone from another faith about the 2nd coming -

Isa 11:10... In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.

Anyways, this other group of people has all these scriptures about the final battle being over in Israel - the last gathering to take place around the Mediterranean. I thought I remembered somewhere that JS was named "The Branch From Jesse"? When clearly all of this will take place in the middle East - NOT Americas.

What does the LDS church teach regarding things like Isa 11?
SECTION 113

"Answers to certain questions on the writings of Isaiah, given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at or near Far West, Missouri, March 1838.

3 What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?

4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power.

5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?

6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a adescendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days."

The above is a high handed attempt by Joseph Smith to write himself into the Bible. And it really stinks.

I'm heading to sleep right now but tomorrow I can do an excellent exegesis on Isaiah 11 that shows just how incorrect Joseph's D&C crap really is. It's just SO wrong. :|
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Palerider
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Re: New Gospel Topic on BOM Geography.

Post by Palerider » Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:37 pm

I decided this might be a bit of a thread jack so if anyone is interested see the new doctrinal thread on debunking Joseph's D&C self promoting prophecy.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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