“Carry Overs” into the next life?

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Red Ryder
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“Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Jan 03, 2022 2:15 pm

What does church doctrine say about the sins and addictions that will be carried over into the next life?

I’ve heard addictions will need to be overcome in the next life. I’ve heard bad habits that will have to be overcome?

But physical pains and ailments such as handicaps etc won’t continue in the next life.

Is it safe to say physical abnormalities will be alleviated with the resurrection but anything sinful that can’t be repented from on earth will continue?

Seems like both sides of the Mormon doctrine mouth are moving here.

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Palerider
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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Palerider » Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:15 pm

The BofM says:

"Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis,that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. " (Alma 34:34)

From this jumping off point leadership and church writers have entered into a certain amount of speculation as to what will change in the next life and what won't.
I don't want to spend the time hunting down all LDS thinking on this. None of it means anything because the current or next "prophet" might say something different.

Personally, I think what makes the biggest difference regarding how we fair on the other side depends heavily on:

1. Who we put our faith in during this life. (Even if that may have been a short time due to circumstances. See the thief on the cross.)

2. I think the church has a small understanding of what God's Grace really is and what He will do with it. There are and have been many millions of people who have made mistakes in this life that they pay for for the rest of their lives. It isn't that they wouldn't change things if they could. It's that this temporal existence doesn't allow them to. God's Grace answers that problem.

The church on the other hand being so utterly mired in the idea of measuring righteousness in this life and that their pseudo-priesthood power can cure anything (if the unfortunate member will just DO THEIR PART....is forced to continue the repentance process after death and on into eternity until the human has done "all we can do" to make ourselves presentable to God.


I'm pretty sure that the mess we are in isn't one that we can entirely clean up since it is of an "eternal nature" and we are stuck in a temporal sphere. That doesn't mean we don't make a good faith effort. But it also means that God doesn't hold it against us when we are unable to clean things up.

In my estimation there is absolutely no aspect of human nature that cannot be touched by this imperfect world, contrary to what Boyd K. Packer thought.

Likewise there is no aspect of imperfection that will not be fairly addressed by God's Grace. And I think I can guarantee you that as long as our heart is in the right place when we cross over to that next life, the things here that troubled and tortured us will hardly even come to mind.
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Hagoth
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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:32 pm

Maybe it depends on whether or not you were Mormon in this life. Think about what we are taught about other aspects of the spirit world. If you were taught "the gospel" in this life but rejected it you won't have a second chance in the next. You screwed the pooch. But, if you were raised out in the lone and dreary world, you could live any kind of life imaginable in ignorance of "the gospel" and have a change to repent and climb the celestial ladder once the ghost of a dead Mormon serving a mission to spirit prison finds and enlightens you.

So maybe smoking, drinking, etc. don't follow you into the spirit world if you were ignorant of the Word of Wisdom in this life, but addictions to Mountain Dew and the Victoria's Secret catalog will torment you in the great beyond because, being Born In The Covenant, you should have known better.
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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by moksha » Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:02 pm

I want there to be an afterlife, but it feels like something made up in the 19th Century would fail to be a good guide. What if you had the habit of masturbation? Would you want it to end once you are no longer earthbound?
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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by wtfluff » Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:16 pm

"Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. " (Alma 34:34)
Yeah, the above "doctrine" in the BoM bugged me a bit even as a believer: When you chat with faithful believing women about polygamy, a lot of them will say: "Oh, I guess something will change in the next life and I'll be OK sharing my husband with a bunch of sister wives." Well... According to the BoM, that can't happen, because your "spirit" of hating polygamy will "posses your body in that eternal world." Oops.
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Angel
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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Angel » Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:29 pm

For the rest of the Christian world.... All sin can be traced back to Adam - as in Adam all die. In other words, pain is not necessarily a result of our own character (sometimes yes, but usually not). Pain/suffering is just a result of Adam/Eve. Everyone dies because of Adam.

LDS view: suffering is because that person is a sinner and needed to be pruned (what was that horrible bush story?)

Christian view: suffering is because Adam/Eve ate the fruit, just a curse to all humanity, not necessarily caused by individuals themselves. Every last one of us will die a slow agonizing long death because of Adam. Good people suffer, bad people get off scot free, pain is no indication of how righteous you are, it is all just a result of the fall.

Everyone will be resurrected with perfect body/mind/soul according to the Bible.
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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Hagoth » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:40 am

Angel wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:29 pm
For the rest of the Christian world.... All sin can be traced back to Adam - as in Adam all die. In other words, pain is not necessarily a result of our own character (sometimes yes, but usually not). Pain/suffering is just a result of Adam/Eve. Everyone dies because of Adam.
And they are redeemed through Christ. It really is a nice idea. Too bad almost no Christian religion really believes that part of it. Christians need a Hell for people they don't like to go to and Mormons need degrees of glory and Outer Darkness. Somehow, we are all brought into this world in a fallen state, Jesus suffered for ALL of us, but most of us don't actually get redeemed despite his sacrifice for us.

There is usually an exchange of money that determines who gets the full benefit of Jesus' gift.

I was listening the recent Mormonism Live with the BYU dance teacher who was fired for nonconformity. Her sin was that she couldn't answer all of the cultish temple recommend questions to BYU's satisfaction (which obviously made her incapable of teaching dance!). But the bigger problem, it seemed to me, was that she had stopped paying tithing until she felt like she could come to terms with her doubts.

After her bishop reported her up the line of authority the word that came back was that she was no longer a Celestial person and, as a Terrestrial person, was not fit to teach in the hallowed halls of a university named after the famous harem owner.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Palerider » Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:41 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:40 am

I was listening the recent Mormonism Live with the BYU dance teacher who was fired for nonconformity. Her sin was that she couldn't answer all of the cultish temple recommend questions to BYU's satisfaction (which obviously made her incapable of teaching dance!). But the bigger problem, it seemed to me, was that she had stopped paying tithing until she felt like she could come to terms with her doubts.

After her bishop reported her up the line of authority the word that came back was that she was no longer a Celestial person and, as a Terrestrial person, was not fit to teach in the hallowed halls of a university named after the famous harem owner.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't BYU occasionally employ instructors who are not members of the church? They just have to commit to keeping all of the BYU/church standards.

I was thinking my wife had a swim coach there who was not a member. (Just asked her and he was not a member.)

The ironic thing is, if this dance teacher had never been a member of the church she probably would have done fine. But because she was a previously committed member who was backing away from what she came to perceive as a questionable proposition, she now must be viewed as a threat to the institution.

Makes total sense. :roll:
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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by moksha » Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:12 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:40 am
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't BYU occasionally employ instructors who are not members of the church? They just have to commit to keeping all of the BYU/church standards.
A few years back there was a non-member BYU ROTC instructor who made the news because he refused to give up having a cup of coffee in the morning. It's not like BYU was asking him to take part in the nude clogging Temple ritual wearing goat leggings. That would clearly have been reserved for members since it was rife with Masonic symbolism.

It was clear from the Dehlin interview that the dance professor was also an intellectual which would have put her at odds with the BYU culture due to being a woman. What future God wishes to call out the name of a woman during the resurrection process who thinks for herself?
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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:36 pm

moksha wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:02 pm
I want there to be an afterlife, but it feels like something made up in the 19th Century would fail to be a good guide. What if you had the habit of masturbation? Would you want it to end once you are no longer earthbound?
You bring up a really huge dilemma my dear penguin!

You’re not going to make the highest level of heaven, yea even the Celestial Kingdom if you have the habit of masturbation.

And we all know in the Telestial Kingdom we won’t have genitals so this dirty habit of self gratification won’t be fulfilled by rubbing on a smoothie.

So even if you didn’t want it to end, it’s going to be God’s evil designed tiered system of heaven!

Makes total sense. :roll:
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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:36 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:36 pm
You’re not going to make the highest level of heaven, yea even the Celestial Kingdom if you have the habit of masturbation.

And we all know in the Telestial Kingdom we won’t have genitals so this dirty habit of self gratification won’t be fulfilled by rubbing on a smoothie.
So, unless masturbation is an automatic ticket to the Telestial Kingdom, The Terrestrial Kingdom is going to be a wall-to-wall masturbation fest?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Angel » Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:05 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:40 am
Angel wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:29 pm
For the rest of the Christian world.... All sin can be traced back to Adam - as in Adam all die. In other words, pain is not necessarily a result of our own character (sometimes yes, but usually not). Pain/suffering is just a result of Adam/Eve. Everyone dies because of Adam.
And they are redeemed through Christ. It really is a nice idea. Too bad almost no Christian religion really believes that part of it. Christians need a Hell for people they don't like to go to and Mormons need degrees of glory and Outer Darkness. Somehow, we are all brought into this world in a fallen state, Jesus suffered for ALL of us, but most of us don't actually get redeemed despite his sacrifice for us.

I should not have said "for the rest", there are a few Christians who do not subscribe to hell theology (my parents included). In any event, Bible makes it sound like we will not bring any imperfections with us in the resurrection:

1 Cor 15: 42-..So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption, It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power, It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

We all die both physical and spiritual death, after a small moment of pain (caused by Adam/Eve), we will all be raised as perfect beings. All tears wiped away, complete victory, happy ending.

I told God if there is a heaven I refuse to go until everyone else is first there as it would not be heaven without everyone. "If it does not work out well for everyone, it will not work out for me either." Either God and this life are a good teacher, or God is an incompetent abusive unjust ***. I reserve the right to be the last person to heaven if it exists as I would not be happy - it would not be heaven - without everyone equally present and equally glorified there. :D
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Palerider » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:40 pm

Angel wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:05 am
In any event, Bible makes it sound like we will not bring any imperfections with us in the resurrection:

1 Cor 15: 42-..So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption, It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power, It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

We all die both physical and spiritual death, after a small moment of pain (caused by Adam/Eve), we will all be raised as perfect beings. All tears wiped away, complete victory, happy ending.
I think you are quite close here.

I do think however that there are some people currently and throughout history who (beyond my understanding) just really like evil. They actually relish in it even when they know much better.

For them I think Hell does exist.

I'm not naming names because that's God's place to do that and I have to trust His judgement. But He knows.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Angel » Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:20 pm

Palerider wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:40 pm
Angel wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:05 am
In any event, Bible makes it sound like we will not bring any imperfections with us in the resurrection:

1 Cor 15: 42-..So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption, It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power, It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

We all die both physical and spiritual death, after a small moment of pain (caused by Adam/Eve), we will all be raised as perfect beings. All tears wiped away, complete victory, happy ending.
I think you are quite close here.

I do think however that there are some people currently and throughout history who (beyond my understanding) just really like evil. They actually relish in it even when they know much better.

For them I think Hell does exist.

I'm not naming names because that's God's place to do that and I have to trust His judgement. But He knows.
All evil needs to be destroyed for a complete and perfect victory - if there is a heaven, that is the only end that makes sense to me. Infinite cause=effect chain linking us all together nature/nurture. That nurture part links us in the same boat.

just takes the right teacher, and even Hitler's temple work can be done ;) after all, Hitler was totally into genealogy, fasting, followed the word of wisdom, ran great scouting program for the Mormon kids, watched out for the Mormon church through ww2 - everyone has their good side ;)
Last edited by Angel on Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Palerider » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:38 pm

Angel wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:20 pm
after all, Hitler was totally into genealogy, fasting, followed the word of wisdom, ran great scouting program for the Mormon kids, watched out for the Mormon church through ww2 - everyone has their good side ;)
1. Hitler was "into genealogy" because he was trying to create a pure Aryan race. No Jews, Arabs, black Africans, Hispanics, gypsies or any other people of color or undesirable lineage allowed except as slaves.

2. Hitler banned Scouting in 1935 and forced all "pure" German youth to join the Hitler Youth organization. I'm sure you have heard the story of the Mormon teenager Helmuth Hübener who refused to join, then rebelled against Hitler and was beheaded for his integrity? He may have been the youngest insurgent executed by the Nazis and he was told before his execution that Hitler personally refused to commute his sentence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_H%C3%BCbener

3. If Hitler had a soft spot for Mormon principles it was because of the church's emphasis on genealogy and German Mormons researching their ancestry made it easy to determine which of them came from "pure" Aryan bloodlines and which did not. Easier to eliminate the undesirables. The fact that some church leaders found what they considered positive parallels between Nazism and Mormonism does not speak well at all for the church. Inspired leadership should have known better.

There is "nature" and there is "nurture" and there is also "free will" or agency. The first two will be taken into account as they should be. But they cannot negate the individual's personal responsibility for who they choose to become.

I'm just glad I'm not the one who judges. It would take someone with infinite knowledge and understanding. Someone who truly knows the heart and mind even better than the individual themselves.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:02 am

If any adverse mentality that we have will carry over to the afterlife, what happens when the adverse mentality is a result of mortal imperfections?

Example, a person live in chronic pain due to a genetic defect, say multiple sclerosis. This has resulted in an dependence on opioid painkillers to get through life. When they die and their body is perfected, then the source of their constant pain will be removed. They will no longer need pain killers, does that mean that they will be cured of their opioid dependence? They are being punished for eternity for something that is God's fault to start with.

How about someone with an addiction that is not the fault of the person in question? Lets say person is addicted to opioids again, but this is due a doctor over prescribing them after they were in an accident? This person suffers due to the actions of someone else exercising their agency. Will they get a pass? Should a person be punished for eternity because of the sins of someone else?

Someone could argue that it could be dependent on the person trying to overcome their addiction. Still, you have issues. How about the person who dies in an accident on their way to checking themselves into rehab? Someone is trying to overcome a sin, but is killed before they can really start the process, should they be punished for eternity for just dying at an inconvenient time?

Then you have the fact that many people never full get over addictions. There are some addictions that stay with you for your full life. You may never touch a drop of alcohol for decades, but you can still have that mental need for it that they fight until their last breath. Will that person have the addiction in the next life because they had it when they died, even thought they fought to not give in for years?

There are so many different examples you can come up with. As we learn the cause and effect of being human, there is more and more that is not clearly cut and dried good vs. evil. So does God make exceptions to the rule for extenuating circumstances? If he does, where is the line drawn?
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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Angel » Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:08 am

Palerider wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:38 pm
Angel wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:20 pm
after all, Hitler was totally into genealogy, fasting, followed the word of wisdom, ran great scouting program for the Mormon kids, watched out for the Mormon church through ww2 - everyone has their good side ;)
1. Hitler was "into genealogy" because he was trying to create a pure Aryan race. No Jews, Arabs, black Africans, Hispanics, gypsies or any other people of color or undesirable lineage allowed except as slaves.

2. Hitler banned Scouting in 1935 and forced all "pure" German youth to join the Hitler Youth organization. I'm sure you have heard the story of the Mormon teenager Helmuth Hübener who refused to join, then rebelled against Hitler and was beheaded for his integrity? He may have been the youngest insurgent executed by the Nazis and he was told before his execution that Hitler personally refused to commute his sentence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_H%C3%BCbener

3. If Hitler had a soft spot for Mormon principles it was because of the church's emphasis on genealogy and German Mormons researching their ancestry made it easy to determine which of them came from "pure" Aryan bloodlines and which did not. Easier to eliminate the undesirables. The fact that some church leaders found what they considered positive parallels between Nazism and Mormonism does not speak well at all for the church. Inspired leadership should have known better.

There is "nature" and there is "nurture" and there is also "free will" or agency. The first two will be taken into account as they should be. But they cannot negate the individual's personal responsibility for who they choose to become.

I'm just glad I'm not the one who judges. It would take someone with infinite knowledge and understanding. Someone who truly knows the heart and mind even better than the individual themselves.
sorry if that was not clear, I was being sarcastic -
see: http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/hitler.htm

The Mormons did very well under Hitler - helped Hitler with genealogy, fasted together, and the Hitler youth program was used by Mormon youth. Rather horrific, and one of the reasons I believe Mormons are led by false prophets.

Our choices are limited in this life - we all follow what we know, and what we know is limited. Someone raised in a different country, different education, would turn out completely different. I actually like the idea of reincarnation as multiple lives in multiple environments is to me the only just/fair way our real character would be revealed.

None of us have the same resources, none of us can be judged by the same metric as we all have different backgrounds, different experiences - attribution error.

https://youtu.be/AdrDAik86rc
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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Angel » Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:24 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:02 am
If any adverse mentality that we have will carry over to the afterlife, what happens when the adverse mentality is a result of mortal imperfections?

Example, a person live in chronic pain due to a genetic defect, say multiple sclerosis. This has resulted in an dependence on opioid painkillers to get through life. When they die and their body is perfected, then the source of their constant pain will be removed. They will no longer need pain killers, does that mean that they will be cured of their opioid dependence? They are being punished for eternity for something that is God's fault to start with.

How about someone with an addiction that is not the fault of the person in question? Lets say person is addicted to opioids again, but this is due a doctor over prescribing them after they were in an accident? This person suffers due to the actions of someone else exercising their agency. Will they get a pass? Should a person be punished for eternity because of the sins of someone else?

Someone could argue that it could be dependent on the person trying to overcome their addiction. Still, you have issues. How about the person who dies in an accident on their way to checking themselves into rehab? Someone is trying to overcome a sin, but is killed before they can really start the process, should they be punished for eternity for just dying at an inconvenient time?

Then you have the fact that many people never full get over addictions. There are some addictions that stay with you for your full life. You may never touch a drop of alcohol for decades, but you can still have that mental need for it that they fight until their last breath. Will that person have the addiction in the next life because they had it when they died, even thought they fought to not give in for years?

There are so many different examples you can come up with. As we learn the cause and effect of being human, there is more and more that is not clearly cut and dried good vs. evil. So does God make exceptions to the rule for extenuating circumstances? If he does, where is the line drawn?
I found that horrible Calvainst video/talk the church put out - https://youtu.be/Rr8xvw0cgw0

Consider an abused kid - 5 years old, severe abuse - listening to this talk being told the abuse was "love-inspired correction".

Mormon beliefs about a premortal world allow members to justify predestination - that little abused kid must have deserved their horror abuse because of what they did in the premortal world. Those born in developing countries, those born under terrorist regimes - they all deserved their lot because of who they were in the pre-existence. In essence - "the test" - is already done, you were tested before you were born, and this life is just a result of how you behaved in the premortal world.

Mormons essentially believe the great and noble spirits are already chosen, those with the easy life earned that life in the premortal world, and those who are handicapped or born into less favorable circumstances - you can ignore these people as they are not noble, not chosen, not worth your time.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Palerider » Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:45 am

Angel wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:08 am

sorry if that was not clear, I was being sarcastic -

No, I'm sorry!

I totally missed that. I was trying to figure out a way of saying kindly that you must be a taco shy of a full platter.... :oops:

:)
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"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Re: “Carry Overs” into the next life?

Post by Palerider » Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:49 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:02 am
If any adverse mentality that we have will carry over to the afterlife, what happens when the adverse mentality is a result of mortal imperfections?

Example, a person live in chronic pain due to a genetic defect, say multiple sclerosis. This has resulted in an dependence on opioid painkillers to get through life. When they die and their body is perfected, then the source of their constant pain will be removed. They will no longer need pain killers, does that mean that they will be cured of their opioid dependence? They are being punished for eternity for something that is God's fault to start with.

How about someone with an addiction that is not the fault of the person in question? Lets say person is addicted to opioids again, but this is due a doctor over prescribing them after they were in an accident? This person suffers due to the actions of someone else exercising their agency. Will they get a pass? Should a person be punished for eternity because of the sins of someone else?

Someone could argue that it could be dependent on the person trying to overcome their addiction. Still, you have issues. How about the person who dies in an accident on their way to checking themselves into rehab? Someone is trying to overcome a sin, but is killed before they can really start the process, should they be punished for eternity for just dying at an inconvenient time?

Then you have the fact that many people never full get over addictions. There are some addictions that stay with you for your full life. You may never touch a drop of alcohol for decades, but you can still have that mental need for it that they fight until their last breath. Will that person have the addiction in the next life because they had it when they died, even thought they fought to not give in for years?

There are so many different examples you can come up with. As we learn the cause and effect of being human, there is more and more that is not clearly cut and dried good vs. evil. So does God make exceptions to the rule for extenuating circumstances? If he does, where is the line drawn?
I think I covered most of this in my first post on this thread. ;)
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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