Debunking D&C 113

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Palerider
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Debunking D&C 113

Post by Palerider » Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:20 pm

I apologize for this being so long. It's one of those sore spots for me. :oops:

One of my studies during my disaffection from the church which had a big impact on me was a study of Isaiah 11.

A little background:

Israel and the house of David were essentially promised that as long as they were righteous they would never want for a King to sit upon the throne.

Of course Israel was not able to maintain righteousness and neither were her kings with Zedekiah being the last Davidic King to rule.

And so the house of David (regarding kings) was essentially cut off or truncated from leadership after the Babylonian captivity. The family tree became a "stump" to use a figure of speech. But all hope was not lost.

As in a number of species of trees, (Olive tree being one) the root system can survive long enough to bring forth a sprout that can then regrow the entire fruitful tree. It is a product of the root or in some sense the root itself regenerating.

Looking at Isaiah 11:1
"And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:..."

The word "rod" in the Hebrew is better translated as "neetzer" or shaft. A "shoot" of growth that comes forth.

The word "stem" is better translated as "stump".

The word "branch" is translated as "choter" or twig.

(Thank you to the King James version for making this a difficult read.) :roll:

So in principle Isaiah 11:1 is telling us that out of the root of Jesse (the Davidic line) which has been truncated or cut down to the stump, a small growth shoot is going to come forth. And his standing with God and his great capabilities are described as one reads on in Isaiah. Without doubt, this is the Messiah/Christ. It all makes perfect sense.

But right off the bat D&C 113:1 gets this wrong. It states:

"Who is the Stem of Jesse spoken of in the 1st, 2d, 3d, 4th, and 5th verses of the 11th chapter of Isaiah?

2 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is Christ."

Sorry guys but "the stem" (or stump) is not a WHO..... it's a WHAT. The stem is a truncated lineage...not a person.

Furthermore, what doesn't make any sense is where D&C 113:3 provides the answer that the growth shaft is a "servant in the hands of Christ". The biblical Isaiah verses following verse one make it obvious that the descendant of Jesse/David is NOT an ordinary human. For example verse 4 :

"But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked."

Sorry all you TBMs out there but this is not remotely descriptive of Joseph Smith. It is utterly Messianic.

Isaiah verse 10 goes on to say:
"And in that day (the day of the millennium described in previous verses) there shall be a root of Jesse which shall stand as an ensign of the people; to him shall the gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Then D&C 113:5 asks what is "the root of Jesse" described in verse 10.

Again it is claimed:
" ...it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom..." (Read Joseph Smith)

Aside from being totally wrong the above answer from the D&C paves the way for Joseph to have himself anointed as King. He holds the keys of the Kingdom so why not???

What makes this all even worse is when we look closely at D&C 113:3 if we make the "stem" into Christ (as stated in verse 2) it then states that the "rod COMES OF THE STEM..."

The implication here is that this "servant" is a descendant of Christ...

Of course the Apostle Paul puts the lie to all of this in Romans 15:12

The entire chapter refers to Christ as primarily ministering to the Jews AND "to confirm the promises to the fathers: AND that the gentiles might glorify God for his mercy......as it is written there shall be a root of Jesse, and he shall rise to reign over the gentiles; and in him shall the gentiles trust."

Christ is the root referred to in Isaiah 11:10.....not Joseph Smith.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Angel
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Re: Debunking D&C 113

Post by Angel » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:12 am

I was waiting for you to reply to me from the geography thread about Isa11 :)
Stem of Jesse is talking about 2nd coming of Jesus. Jesus = the stem of Jesse.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/isa ... onc_690001

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev ... nc_1189016

Isa 11:10... In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean. → the location is also very clear here, 2nd coming is going to revolve around Mediterranean.

see also Zechariah 14 for the location of the final battle - not in America, in Jerusalem/ Mount of Olives / Egypt
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/zec/14/1/s_925001
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Palerider
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Re: Debunking D&C 113

Post by Palerider » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:07 pm

Angel wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:12 am
Stem of Jesse is talking about 2nd coming of Jesus. Jesus = the stem of Jesse.
I agree with almost everything you've shown here. The only part I have reservations on is that "Jesus=Stem of Jesse".

Stem is translated "geza" which means:

H1503 - גֶּזַע gezaʻ, geh'-zah; from an unused root meaning to cut down (trees); the trunk or stump of a tree (as felled or as planted):—stem, stock.

So this prophecy actually covers dual aspects of both of Christ's comings. First he is a small, tender sprout that springs from the stump or root (lineage) of Jesse.

Then, admittedly without spelling it out, the prophecy shifts to describing the full powers that this small sprout will grow to possess. Then a full transition at verse 6 where the conditions that will come to exist at the time of the second coming are described. All of which you have accurately assessed.

At that day the "Root of Jesse" (now in full strength and majesty) will set His hand the second time to gather Israel from all parts of the earth back to the land of Israel. Contrary to what the LDS church thinks, that gathering will take place AFTER the Second Coming of Christ when all the scores will be settled, not before and definitely not to any place in America.

And thus, symbolically Christ is BOTH the "sprout" that comes from the stump of Jesse and the "root" itself being the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Angel
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Re: Debunking D&C 113

Post by Angel » Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:04 am

Some good reading on the end - Matthew 24:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/24/1/s_953001

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


All the scriptures about false prophets for anyone interested:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... jv/tr/0-1/
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

dogbite
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Re: Debunking D&C 113

Post by dogbite » Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:21 pm

Both positions strike me as faith claims dressed up with other trappings that aren't reliant on more demonstrable things.

Faith in Joseph Smith

Faith in Isaiah

I don't think either proposition has evidential merit. But faith, sure.

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