NOM

I remember a Sunday School story about a train switchman whose little son ran out on a bridge and the switchman had to decide between saving a trainload of people or his son. It was a metaphor for Heavenly Father sacrificing Jesus.
I've been studying the Mountain Meadows Massacre. The trial and execution of John D. Lee, Brigham Young's adopted son, reminded me of this. Brigham was very likely behind the machinations behind John D. Lee's first trial- hung jury, and second trial- convicted by a jury of all Mormons. It seems that for national & international reputation of the Church to be salvaged, somebody had to be convicted for the MMM. Brigham and/or Church leaders decided to make Lee a scapegoat, and contrived with the lawyers to see that Lee was convicted. I a very real way, John D. Lee was sacrificed for the sins of the Church.

I remember the seminary movie of this. Maybe it was a generic Christian film my teacher used, but there was a film.

Looking on Youtube, it's been done a few times at least by various Christian groups.

deacon blues wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:15 am

I a very real way, John D. Lee was sacrificed for the sins of the Church.

Brilliant observation. You know what would have made it a really good story? If an angel had shown up to save him at the last moment.

I wrote about the "bridge and the switchman" problem as it relates to the church on a blog post that can be found here.

dogbite wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:57 am

I remember the seminary movie of this. Maybe it was a generic Christian film my teacher used, but there was a film.

Why does it seem like someone has to die in the vast majority of old seminary "movies?"

I wonder... [chin-scratching-emoji]

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:11 pm

Why does it seem like someone has to die in the vast majority of old seminary "movies?"

Conspiracy time: Old seminary movies were snuff films for the gratification of the secret inner circle who meet in the pizza restaurant underneath the temple.

You could probably trace the evolution of heartsell through old seminary productions.

I came to the conclusion a while back that the train/child story probably never happened. I figure it was some imaginative person's ( Mormon or non-mormon) crumby dreamed up analogy for Christ's sacrifice.

I disliked it in the extreme.

For one thing the child had no say in whether or not he was being sacrificed. Additionally the people on the train do not go blythely on their way forever.

A more factual analogy would be the Polish Jewish refugee mother hiding with others in an underground sewer whose baby begins to cry as the Nazis who are looking for them walk overhead. Anyone who has read that history knows how that scene ends. It is crushing.

Yes, the infant has no say in his sacrifice but at least those who are present know of the cost of their lives being saved.

Why do we ascribe to the notion that 10 lives are more valuable than one. If I said the train was full of war criminals is it the same?

These anecdotal stories that make up the church are tiresome and have little to do with real life. Stories that have a goal intended to produce guilt of some kind are manipulative.

Everyone never finishes the story either. The father becomes an alcoholic and commits suicide because he cant live with what he did.


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One thing I never understood about the comparison, is that Jesus wasn't really permanently sacrificed. His body died and he suffered for sins, but rose from the dead and was exalted. How is that a sacrifice?

123 separate murders were committed with 123 separate firearms. The Mormon verdict? One person was guilty.

The bright side to the massacre is that only LDS apologists are still pointing their fingers at the Paiute Tribe.

Sometimes scapegoating sacrifice is insufficient, such as when the volcano on Waponi Woo Island refuses a selfless sacrifice and erupts anyway, or the United States Calvary rides in and arrests the lawless Priesthood gang in Cedar City.

Lloyd Christmas wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:58 pm

One thing I never understood about the comparison, is that Jesus wasn't really permanently sacrificed. His body died and he suffered for sins, but rose from the dead and was exalted. How is that a sacrifice?

Yeah, I think the story of Jesus's life is inspiring, but the LDS atonement idea just doesn't quite ring true. It's not infinite; It's like sacrificing a weekend for the human race. But maybe I'm wrong.

deacon blues wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:23 am

Lloyd Christmas wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:58 pm

One thing I never understood about the comparison, is that Jesus wasn't really permanently sacrificed. His body died and he suffered for sins, but rose from the dead and was exalted. How is that a sacrifice?

Yeah, I think the story of Jesus's life is inspiring, but the LDS atonement idea just doesn't quite ring true. It's not infinite; It's like sacrificing a weekend for the human race. But maybe I'm wrong.

Yeah, but... It was a 3-day weekend!!!

moksha wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:51 am

123 separate murders were committed with 123 separate firearms. The Mormon verdict? One person was guilty.

That's not quite right. Many of the younger ones were clubbed to death. Ammo was more precious than lives.

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:11 pm

Yeah, but... It was a 3-day weekend!!!

And it was a paid weekend. According to the multiple probations theory, Jesus was checking off the next box to move up The Bridge to the next level of Elohimness.

The ransom or judicial conceptualization of the atonement comes from both the Gospel of Mark and the theology of Paul in his authentic epistles. It's a common view of the atonement of JC from the earliest of times in the Jesus movement. However, there were and are other views of the atonement. The Gospel of Luke interestingly does not share Mark and Paul's view of the atonement! The LDS Church is one of many Christian churches/traditions that adopted the ransom/judicial perspective on the atonement. Although it is probably the most common/dominant view for many Christians (especially in the USA), it is also a harsh view that doesn't fit well in a modern society.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:05 am

That's not quite right. Many of the younger ones were clubbed to death. Ammo was more precious than lives.

Ammo conservation by clubbing the children to death proves it is all true.