NOM

The Church is trumpeting how it’s helping Tonga at this time, especially shopping 30 tonnes from the main island of Tongatapu to the outer harder hit islands. The issue is those 30 tonnes came from members, not the church stockpile of goods or cash. Which means they have taken from an area that is also suffering. Bless their hearts for giving, but this is poor form again. The Church likes to brag relentlessly about its envied welfare program, but it doesn’t exist outside of the MorCor. Even in areas of high concentration of members like Tonga.

The Tongan Government has advised that 84% of the population has been affected by the tsunami, ash and acid rain which has completely obliterated the agricultural sector. The country will run out of food and drinkable water and face a significant humanitarian issue beyond the initial tsunami.

So why does the Church insist on draining its members for welfare? Why can’t they establish an endowment fund with some of the liquid assets in it’s investment fund to have cash on hand to provide relief? After all, isn’t Tonga the most Mormon country on the planet?

Because the church will always bleed its members rather than spend its own money. The church loves to brag about how much it gives, but it is never tithing money. It is always what the members pay on top of tithing. Even its famous welfare program is all what the members give on top of tithing. So welfare and humanitarian aid are never its own money.

alas wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:56 pm

So welfare and humanitarian aid are never its own money.

The Lord demands that all monies be put into stocks, bonds, and real estate.

It’s obscene. It just breaks my heart that they parade around in this vile pantomime of a charitable and Christian organisation espousing the values of Jesus Christ and the TBM lap it up.

This is actually one thing I miss from my mormon days, opportunities to serve and feeling like I was part of a group really making a difference and helping the world. I think it is great that the church organized people to provide aid. People naturally want to help and the church should mobilize their members to help in a crisis. I would support them mobilizing more charity from members if they could be trusted to provide effective help and not stash some away. With that said, the organization falls short in a number of ways.

- There was no sacrifice on the church's part, no tithing money was touched, so it's an empty gesture
- They take tons of tithing which should be going to help in disasters like this, but instead of using that and giving members the satisfaction that their tithing is really helping, the church asks for even more
- They use this to solicit funds to the church's humanitarian fund which will be used however they see fit
- They should probably be doing more as the dominant church in the area
- They take credit for good PR instead of shining the light on the generous people who donated

I'm wondering if LD$-Inc. will start making announcements over the pulpit (at least in the U.S.A.) asking attendees to make "special" specific donations to the "humanitarian fund" for Tonga?

Will that start this Sunday?

Anyone remember when the temple was being built in Tonga and they asked folks in the U.S. to make specific donations for that?



(I'm not saying it's a bad thing for folks to donate to help out Tonga... As with the overall subject of this thread, I'm saying it's bad for a multi-billion dollar real-estate corporation to ask for donations, and the corporation claims credit for those donations.)

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:23 pm

I'm wondering if LD$-Inc. will start making announcements over the pulpit (at least in the U.S.A.) asking attendees to make "special" specific donations to the "humanitarian fund" for Tonga?

I think that would be fine if God's one and only true church could be trusted.

After the Indonesian tsunami I gave a pretty hefty donation to the church's Humanitarian Aid via the tithing slip. I think I even wrote "Tsunami" on it because I had been told that it would be directly diverted to help victims. I rallied others to do the same. Later I learned that the specific tsunami funds raised in the UK had not gone to help the victims, but were simply absorbed into the church's general fund. We know this because the British government requires churches to reveal records on such things. I could only assume the same happened here in Zion. The church then collected material goods from members, and calculated a dollar value for the hours spent by members and missionaries and took credit for it. It wasn't long after that they added the disclaimer at the bottom of the tithing slip. I don't remember the exact words, but something about how a fool and his money are soon parted.

There are projects collecting food, cleaning supplies, etc. for Tonga and shipping them directly in donated cargo containers. We have decided to give directly to one of those rather than making yet another donation to Ensign Peak Investments.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:07 am

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:23 pm

I'm wondering if LD$-Inc. will start making announcements over the pulpit (at least in the U.S.A.) asking attendees to make "special" specific donations to the "humanitarian fund" for Tonga?

I think that would be fine if God's one and only true church could be trusted.

After the Indonesian tsunami I gave a pretty hefty donation to the church's Humanitarian Aid via the tithing slip. I think I even wrote "Tsunami" on it because I had been told that it would be directly diverted to help victims. I rallied others to do the same. Later I learned that the specific tsunami funds raised in the UK had not gone to help the victims, but were simply absorbed into the church's general fund. We know this because the British government requires churches to reveal records on such things. I could only assume the same happened here in Zion. The church then collected material goods from members, and calculated a dollar value for the hours spent by members and missionaries and took credit for it. It wasn't long after that they added the disclaimer at the bottom of the tithing slip. I don't remember the exact words, but something about how a fool and his money are soon parted.

There are projects collecting food, cleaning supplies, etc. for Tonga and shipping them directly in donated cargo containers. We have decided to give directly to one of those rather than making yet another donation to Ensign Peak Investments.

New Zealand has similar reporting standards. The expenses line under Grants, donations, humanitarian and local unit expenses is $6.2 million from $112 million. Let’s break that down, that’s branch, ward budgets and internal/external welfare. Spread over 228 congregations, that is around $522 per week per congregation to spend on all those items. Keep in mind there are no bishops storehouses, no welfare farms and no DI stores to draw from.

Page 7 of the below shows this and other juicy details. Such as $21 million spent on employee remuneration and other benefits. Page 23 shares a wonderful little tidbit of info advising that 5 executives share a total package of $874,000 giving $174,800 each. $21 million spent on employees compared to just over $6 million for over 200 congregations to share.

Let that sink in.

https://register.charities.govt.nz/Charity/CC31692 Click on annual statements. Then on the 1.03MB link and it will open the detailed pdf.

no1saint wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:39 pm

https://register.charities.govt.nz/Docu ... 155d6b7730

No1saint, this link doesn't seem to be working. I've tried in two browsers.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:48 am

no1saint wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:39 pm

https://register.charities.govt.nz/Docu ... 155d6b7730

No1saint, this link doesn't seem to be working. I've tried in two browsers.

Try this one that takes you to their page. Then you can click around the various statements. Click on annual statements. Then on the 1.03MB link and it will open the detailed pdf.

https://register.charities.govt.nz/Charity/CC31692

Red Ryder wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:56 pm

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:48 am

no1saint wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:39 pm

https://register.charities.govt.nz/Docu ... 155d6b7730

No1saint, this link doesn't seem to be working. I've tried in two browsers.

Try this one that takes you to their page. Then you can click around the various statements. Click on annual statements. Then on the 1.03MB link and it will open the detailed pdf.

https://register.charities.govt.nz/Charity/CC31692

Cheers. I tried to link straight into the report.

no1saint wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:39 pm

New Zealand has similar reporting standards. The expenses line under Grants, donations, humanitarian and local unit expenses is $6.2 million from $112 million. Let’s break that down, that’s branch, ward budgets and internal/external welfare. Spread over 228 congregations, that is around $522 per week per congregation to spend on all those items. Keep in mind there are no bishops storehouses, no welfare farms and no DI stores to draw from.

Page 7 of the below shows this and other juicy details. Such as $21 million spent on employee remuneration and other benefits. Page 23 shares a wonderful little tidbit of info advising that 5 executives share a total package of $874,000 giving $174,800 each. $21 million spent on employees compared to just over $6 million for over 200 congregations to share.

Let that sink in.

I think you have to take this a bit further and determine what the surplus available for member Benefit could be.

Let’s assume total benefit is 6% of all income 6/100 (112 rounded down because I’m mathematically lazy).

Is that comparable to other like minded organizations? Many poorly run charities are admin cost heavy and only a small % goes to the intended beneficiary.

I’d think the church falls under this category as No1saint is pointing out.

I’ll have to do an analysis on the financial statements for more commentary.

I did notice that they disclose “No” when asked if providing charitable resources to out of country. The church is very adept at balancing resources across countries within regulatory guidelines. Example is Canada is allowed to provide resources to education. So surplus goes to BYU, etc.

It appears New Zealand runs at a deficit and receives related party funds from SLC HQ. Footnote 18 says 65.7M of the 112M total came from SLC.

Local membership can’t self sustain the local church. Which means SLC subsidized operations which means the church is built up/out so far it can’t be self sustaining by its local membership. Not necessarily a concern, but would be an indication it’s administratively and operationally top heavy. A lot of resources and expenses are being used to prop it up.

Obviously the case that the SLC Utah church subsidizes the rest of the world.

No1saint,

What is the church currently building over there? Any new buildings or growth?

Page 10 cash flow statement shows 71M spent on property, plant, equipment. The PPE footnote shows the capital additions which would include any capitalized maintenance etc.

ETA: I went back and read the financial statements and 2020 highlights. Looks like the Auckland temple was announced and construction started in 2019. The 2020 report reflects temple construction in the 71M spend above.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:02 pm

No1saint,

What is the church currently building over there? Any new buildings or growth?

Page 10 cash flow statement shows 71M spent on property, plant, equipment. The PPE footnote shows the capital additions which would include any capitalized maintenance etc.

ETA: I went back and read the financial statements and 2020 highlights. Looks like the Auckland temple was announced and construction started in 2019. The 2020 report reflects temple construction in the 71M spend above.

A significant amount of resources has been spent on redeveloping Temple View and the Hamilton Temple and ancillary buildings. In addition to that is the Auckland Temple and a few Stake Centres in Auckland.

@red Ryder

Keep in mind the Pacific Area Office and MTC is in New Zealand so the operating costs associated with those would need to come out of the local budget.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8563321/covi ... i-pacific/

Kiribati finally began reopening this month, allowing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to charter a plane to bring home 54 of the island nation’s citizens. Many of those aboard were missionaries who had left Kiribati before the border closure to spread the faith abroad for what is commonly known as the Mormon church.

Officials tested each returning passenger three times in nearby Fiji, required that they be vaccinated, and put them in quarantine with additional testing when they arrived home.

It wasn’t enough.

More than half the passengers tested positive for the virus, which has now slipped out into the community and prompted the government to declare a state of disaster. An initial 36 positive cases from the flight had ballooned to 181 cases by Friday.