Different take on Brad Wilcox

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Zeezrom
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Different take on Brad Wilcox

Post by Zeezrom » Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:33 pm

Ok so I found the transcript and read the entire fireside talk by Brad Wilcox and……found myself underwhelmed by the hype. Basically I’m not seeing anything unorthodox or controversial from a TBM’s point of view. And maybe that’s the larger issue in itself.

Some perspective on my point of view: born in the church in the early 1970s and left completely in early 2014. I went from a TBM High Priest to name removed in less than a year, never really had that middle of the road NOM experience. I was the Apostle Paul in reverse and had my own Damascus moment when I tried to see things from my own apostate family members’ point of view and started looking at things objectively without TBM glasses on. (Triggered by guilt at the heated Facebook arguments I was involved in).

So reading this talk transported me back to my 30+ years of being a TBM and in it I don’t find anything that I didn’t hear hundreds of times in seminary, institute, gospel doctrine etc…in fact I’m SURE I used some of the same wording in my own callings as a gospel doctrine teacher, institute teacher, BP counsellor, etc…and in talks and testimonies.

The backlash shows just how much the world has changed while the church has stayed the same. I feel for Brad Wilcox, I really genuinely do have empathy for him. He was teaching what he was taught and what many of us in the church have always taught. 9 years ago I would have given the exact same talk and I probably would have just received the usual round of handshakes and pats on the back I always got.

The world has changed. Brad Wilcox has not. And if the church and Joseph Smith really were what they claim to be then I would be right there standing in solidarity with him.

Now I see Brad Wilcox as a clown defending the indefensible with just a tinge of remorse….because I myself at 40 years old was that same clown spewing the same garbage to smaller audiences.

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Palerider
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Re: Different take on Brad Wilcox

Post by Palerider » Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:59 pm

I feel badly for Wilcox in the same way I feel badly for anyone who has been getting away with being kind of stupid for some time and suddenly it caught up to them in a very painful way. I think you're right that he pretty much has just been regurgitating what he was taught all his life but if he had really read the essays a little more carefully he would have seen that the church was shifting the ground beneath him. So he appears inept in the present climate.

The thing that bothers me most however is his insulting attitude towards those who have legitimate questions or think a little differently. He uses way too much sarcasm and cynicism in situations where respect and gravitas should prevail. Sarcasm and cynicism are emotional/verbal weapons.....not instruments of healing.

I made my share of mistakes when I was TBM and I regret all of them but as far as I can remember, intentionally making people feel small or stupid was not one of them.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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alas
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Re: Different take on Brad Wilcox

Post by alas » Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:10 pm

You are correct that this talk isn’t that far off orthodox, or far from what the church taught just yesterday. In fact, I have seen written several times that he has been giving this exact talk for years with no repercussions. But the problem really is that one cannot defend the indefensible or justify discrimination without sounding like a bigot. Funny thing that. Same problem Randy Bott had EXACTLY. Here is Randy teaching what he was taught by the church and has taught for years when some child points out the the emperor has no clothes, then suddenly everybody dares to say what they have been thinking for years. Here, poor Brad was just trying to justify the church’s discrimination against Blacks and against women, and he sounds like a racist sexist jerk. Funny thing. He was trying to excuse years of racism and excuse current sexism by the church, and funny that position should make him sound racist and sexist. A person cannot explain sexism or racism by their institution without being racist and sexist. The very fact that he thinks all this is God’s will proves that he is racist and sexist. Someone who believes in the kind of God I worship would be horrified by the church’s position on denying Blacks the priesthood then and women now. So, the problem is not Brad Wilcox at all. It is that the church is still racist and sexist. He was just trying to defend what he believes. The problem is that this is what the church believes.

Zeezrom
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Re: Different take on Brad Wilcox

Post by Zeezrom » Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:26 pm

I agree Alas. The church has an unsolvable problem on its hands. I once read “The Great Apostasy” by James E.Talmage. The central thesis that stuck with me is that the Roman Catholic Church cannot possibly be true because they flip-flopped too many times and because there were so many “Asshats” that took the title of Pope that the keys must certainly have been lost due to unworthiness.

Now we have either a Racist and Sexist Church or they change direction and we have a Church with a history of being run by racist and sexist leaders that somehow still managed to pass down priesthood keys from 1829 despite not having a clue what they were talking about???

Either you get an Evil Church or an Irrelevant Church…..which path do they ultimately choose?

Zeezrom
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Re: Different take on Brad Wilcox

Post by Zeezrom » Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:39 pm

Palerider wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:59 pm

I made my share of mistakes when I was TBM and I regret all of them but as far as I can remember, intentionally making people feel small or stupid was not one of them.
You hit on my road to Damascus moment that led me to read the criticism of the church with an open mind. You see I did attack family members who became “anti” and tried to make them feel small or stupid. When I got called out on it, I began to question why I felt the need to attack and demonize apostates or anyone who attacked the church. Turns out, like I suspect a lot of TBMs are, I was being emotional and defensive because of my own fears that I was being duped and the cognitive dissonance triggered my anger at the messengers who raised the possibility that I had wasted so many years and dollars on a lie.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Different take on Brad Wilcox

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:02 pm

Reading it I can see the point of your post.

Watching it….

Just the theatrics and tone alone make it cringey as fetch! :lol:

Watch the montage here. First 10 minutes where Bill Reel and RFM play it on Mormonism Live.

Forward to 2:25 where it starts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK5Xz6ZgAws
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wtfluff
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Re: Different take on Brad Wilcox

Post by wtfluff » Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:12 pm

Palerider wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:59 pm
The thing that bothers me most however is his insulting attitude towards those who have legitimate questions or think a little differently. He uses way too much sarcasm and cynicism in situations where respect and gravitas should prevail. Sarcasm and cynicism are emotional/verbal weapons.....not instruments of healing.
Remember: Wilcox was formerly an "EFY" director, and many of his current speeches are for the "youth."

He's trying to be "cool" so that kids will listen to him / relate. (Yes, he's failing miserably)

At least his wife still think's he's "cool." :roll:
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

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Hagoth
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Re: Different take on Brad Wilcox

Post by Hagoth » Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:36 pm

I think, more than anything, this episode shows that people outside of the worshipful bubble are paying attention to what is being taught, and now they have the technological torches and pitchforks to do something about it. At least Wilcox was saying some interesting things, idiotic as they were. The fallout will be that church talks will be monitored more carefully and will become even more bland and pointless (if that's possible). Eventually they will have one page of approved vanilla talking points and every speaker will just say the same things in different order.

And millions of people will still get all teary-eyed and act like it's revelatory and inspirational.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Yobispo
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Re: Different take on Brad Wilcox

Post by Yobispo » Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:55 pm

The racism and sexism was blatant and is rightfully being called out. What isn't getting as much attention, but should be, is the very dangerous threatening language he used to induce thought-stopping techniques ("maybe we should ask a different question") and fear ("you will lose everything").

I know we don't throw around the C-word on NOM, but I can tell you that some of us (100% me, as my therapist will attest) were deeply triggered by his threatening language. It doesn't affect us all the same way, but his techniques really messed with my head for a few days. It is cruel, manipulative and extremely dangerous for young minds.

Last thing - some people have said it's not Brad but the system of racism and sexism. I agree with this, and I apply the same answer to the high-demand religious trauma and cult fear/shame tactics. Brad didn't invent any of it, but he's mastered the techniques.

Zeezrom
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Re: Different take on Brad Wilcox

Post by Zeezrom » Fri Feb 11, 2022 5:36 pm

Yobispo wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:55 pm
The racism and sexism was blatant and is rightfully being called out. What isn't getting as much attention, but should be, is the very dangerous threatening language he used to induce thought-stopping techniques ("maybe we should ask a different question") and fear ("you will lose everything").

I know we don't throw around the C-word on NOM, but I can tell you that some of us (100% me, as my therapist will attest) were deeply triggered by his threatening language. It doesn't affect us all the same way, but his techniques really messed with my head for a few days. It is cruel, manipulative and extremely dangerous for young minds.

Last thing - some people have said it's not Brad but the system of racism and sexism. I agree with this, and I apply the same answer to the high-demand religious trauma and cult fear/shame tactics. Brad didn't invent any of it, but he's mastered the techniques.
I have great sympathy for you. Unfortunately It’s the threats that keep Mormonism going generation after generation not the mythical and unseen blessings. What sane individual is going to turn over 10% of their income to an unaccountable and unaudited institution unless they are a victim of threats, intimidation, and blackmail???? What rational individual actually believes they can be better off financially by paying tithing? Yet we all heard that cover story our whole lives.

The more people are willing to speak out and say the emperor has no clothes the sooner this rotten institution will fall. Don’t worry humanity can still do great things without the help of TSCC

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moksha
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Re: Different take on Brad Wilcox

Post by moksha » Sat Feb 12, 2022 4:22 am

Elder Wilcox's technique of evoking both victimhood and being a bully in the same paragraph is disturbing.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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alas
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Re: Different take on Brad Wilcox

Post by alas » Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:24 am

moksha wrote:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 4:22 am
Elder Wilcox's technique of evoking both victimhood and being a bully in the same paragraph is disturbing.
Actually, that has become pretty common among trumpites. Makes me wonder about Brad’s politics.

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2bizE
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Re: Different take on Brad Wilcox

Post by 2bizE » Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:16 pm

I also have some feelings of pity for Brad, primarily because all of the foulness he presented was nothing that I had never been taught in the church before. People are changing yet the rhetoric of the church is not, or at least not at a pace acceptable to people. It’s like the church still lives in the 1950s. Oh wait, all of the current leaders did live in the 1950s. Generally, when similar thinking leaders speak, like Oaks, they bash just one group. Ie. Gays. But Brad hit a grand slam home run. He managed to offend black people, women, girls, LGBTQ, ALL other religions, the entire institution of marriage, exmormons, NOMs, etc. Did he also offend straight, white, priesthood holding TBMs? Anyway, he knocked it out of the park as far as offending and degrading nearly every person on Earth. Something I thought only OAKS or Cook may have been capable of doing.
~2bizE

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1smartdodog
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Different take on Brad Wilcox

Post by 1smartdodog » Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:55 am

I agree he is only teaches what he was taught by the system and believes, or at least I think he believes. However the way he said it turns my stomach.

When I was TBM we had a stake president who spoke with the same condescending tone and mannerisms. He manipulate people then cried at the end to seal in the guilt he forced on you. Wilcox brought those same painful memories back. So arrogant. Even my sort of believing wife could not bear the tone.

It astonishes me how members not only defend what he said but how he said it. I guess some people get off on that us vs them rhetoric. I probably use to be one of them.


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stealthbishop
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Re: Different take on Brad Wilcox

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:59 pm

This is the culture of the church right now in much of the USA. I think there are some areas or pockets, leaders and people who deny this or say it in a more kind way but by and large, this is what is believed and Wilcox is a symptom of much larger problems. This high demand religion (among others in the same boat as the LDS) can be so toxic to so many people. It is sexist and it is racist no matter how you slice it. I feel first for those harmed the most and I do also have some compassion for Wilcox who woke up one day and said WTfetch? He thought he was doing everything right and then got slapped in the face with reality. High demand religions are in a bubble and when they are forced to look in the mirror, they maybe get a glimpse of how toxic things actually are.
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