why don't they teach the City of Enoch in World Civ?

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deacon blues
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why don't they teach the City of Enoch in World Civ?

Post by deacon blues » Sat Feb 12, 2022 4:08 pm

My freshman year, Ricks College/1974-75, I took an elective called World Civilization. I learned a lesson that Sunday School is not the only place where people don't ask real questions. The class covered Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece, and Rome; A little bit about China and India. I remember wondering why nobody asked questions about Adam and Eve, Noah and the flood, the tower of Babel and the Jaredites? There seemed to be a clear understanding that the World Civ. class would not touch on any "inspired history." The 30 LDS students in class all seemed to innately understand this. I thought about asking questions related to Old Testament history, but I was just a Freshman, and if the upper classmen weren't going to ask about it neither was I.
Did anyone have classes at any BYU campuses that addressed the divide between real historical research, and the "Religion department 6,000 year old earth" version of history?
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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moksha
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Re: why don't they teach the City of Enoch in World Civ?

Post by moksha » Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:06 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 4:08 pm
There seemed to be a clear understanding that the World Civilization class would not touch on any "inspired history." The 30 LDS students in class all seemed to innately understand this.
Except for homeschooled young Saints, I imagine most have learned to compartmentalize their learnings. It is through compartmentalization that BYU is able to teach evolution and historical geology while still rooted in young-earth creationism.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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alas
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Re: why don't they teach the City of Enoch in World Civ?

Post by alas » Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:09 am

It is like children raised in bilingual environments, they never confuse the two languages. Religion and science are like two different languages and kids pick up on the fact that the two don’t mix well. Or like kids learning that sex is dirty by the way their parents DON’T talk about it. Kids pick up on things that are taboo to talk about, or things that fit into two different worlds. It is also part of why there are so many Sunday only religious people. In our culture, and this isn’t just Mormons, but religion is not to be talked about in the “normal” world. Church is for Sunday, then you put it out of your heard till next Sunday. Most people even forget the ethics religion teaches them until next Sunday. For the child who doesn’t pick up on the taboo, the school teacher would say something dismissive, like, “that is just for church.” And the kid would be embarrassed and never bring it up again. You knew enough not to ask, so you were really just wondering why you couldn’t ask.

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moksha
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Re: why don't they teach the City of Enoch in World Civ?

Post by moksha » Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:41 am

deacon blues wrote:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 4:08 pm
Did anyone have classes at any BYU campuses that addressed the divide between real historical research, and the "Religion department 6,000 year old earth" version of history?
There was a big controversy at BYU in 1911, when four BYU professors were put to the inquisition by Joseph F. Smith. Three resigned and one recanted and promised not to teach any controversial science (such as evolution or historical geology). The students were angry since the fired men were both the most educated and popular professors at the school.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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moksha
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Re: why don't they teach the City of Enoch in World Civ?

Post by moksha » Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:34 pm

Can't wait for Utah Sen. Mike Lee to secure permission for BYU to use the new Webb Space Telescope to focus on Kolob in an attempt to ascertain the optimal cooling temperature for BYU Creamery ice cream and also to determine the maximal rate for hieing to Kolob. Science can be useful if it adheres to faith-promoting objectives.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

stuck
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Re: why don't they teach the City of Enoch in World Civ?

Post by stuck » Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:01 pm

Oh man, I wish you wouldn't have brought this up. Why you ask? When I was at BYU, I lived near their Peoples and Cultures museum (No longer there) . I remember at the time that I was kind of interested in archaeology because I wanted to prove that the Book of Mormon was true. One time I went in the museum and spoke with one of the archaeologists and told him of my interest. He told me that he thought that that was probably not a good idea or that was the impression that I got. After that I lost interest in archaeology but failed to question why the archaeologist had that opinion!!! Boy my life could have been a lot different! It hasn't been that bad but does anyone else question what if I would have discovered the truth about the church say 10 to 20 years earlier?

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Just This Guy
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Re: why don't they teach the City of Enoch in World Civ?

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:40 am

To take another look at this, assuming you do believe that Enoch was a real city and you were teaching a world civ. class. HOw do you incorperate it into a lecture?
Next, around 2500 BCE, we have the City of Enoch. Um, yeah. It was there, then it wasn't. We had a couple bible verses about it... *pauses* We don't really know anything about it. *pauses* We don't know where it was. We don't know exactly when it disappeared. *pauses* We don't know of any artifacts from the civilization... Um... So anyway, about the etruscans...

Is there really materiel to generate more than about 5 minutes of lecture time in a college setting?
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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alas
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Re: why don't they teach the City of Enoch in World Civ?

Post by alas » Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:21 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:40 am
To take another look at this, assuming you do believe that Enoch was a real city and you were teaching a world civ. class. HOw do you incorperate it into a lecture?
Next, around 2500 BCE, we have the City of Enoch. Um, yeah. It was there, then it wasn't. We had a couple bible verses about it... *pauses* We don't really know anything about it. *pauses* We don't know where it was. We don't know exactly when it disappeared. *pauses* We don't know of any artifacts from the civilization... Um... So anyway, about the etruscans...

Is there really materiel to generate more than about 5 minutes of lecture time in a college setting?
Actually, my son took a class where they talked about Bible as history, according to the archeological evidence, so it isn’t as far out there as this example sounds. It was a class on the archeology of the Holy Land. So, Joshua and the city of Jericho, nope never happened. And they talked about the City of Jericho and that it burned a couple of times, but there is no evidence that the city walls ever got significantly damaged, or that the population went from Canaanites to Israelites all of a sudden as in an outside group coming in and killing every man woman and child. Nope, the inhabitants stayed the same genetically and the walls stayed erect. Monotheism from the time of Abraham? Wahahaha nope. Abraham? Nope. 40 years wandering in the desert? Nope. David being monotheist? Nope, pagan as people come. There are old remnants of temples or monuments to their Biblical God and his wife, that pagan goddess the Bible tried to stamp out, as well as their Biblical god and Baal and a bunch of other “pagan” gods. So, Jehovah was just one of several gods that were worshipped. There is evidence of a King David uniting several of the tribes into some semblance of a kingdom, even a coin with king David on it. But the people of David and Solomon worshiped a bunch of Gods, and as happened in many cultures, one god eventually killed off the others because his followers became more powerful and gained control, them stamped out worship of other gods.

Zeezrom
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Re: why don't they teach the City of Enoch in World Civ?

Post by Zeezrom » Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:31 am

alas wrote:
Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:21 am
Just This Guy wrote:
Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:40 am
To take another look at this, assuming you do believe that Enoch was a real city and you were teaching a world civ. class. HOw do you incorperate it into a lecture?
Next, around 2500 BCE, we have the City of Enoch. Um, yeah. It was there, then it wasn't. We had a couple bible verses about it... *pauses* We don't really know anything about it. *pauses* We don't know where it was. We don't know exactly when it disappeared. *pauses* We don't know of any artifacts from the civilization... Um... So anyway, about the etruscans...

Is there really materiel to generate more than about 5 minutes of lecture time in a college setting?
Actually, my son took a class where they talked about Bible as history, according to the archeological evidence, so it isn’t as far out there as this example sounds. It was a class on the archeology of the Holy Land. So, Joshua and the city of Jericho, nope never happened. And they talked about the City of Jericho and that it burned a couple of times, but there is no evidence that the city walls ever got significantly damaged, or that the population went from Canaanites to Israelites all of a sudden as in an outside group coming in and killing every man woman and child. Nope, the inhabitants stayed the same genetically and the walls stayed erect. Monotheism from the time of Abraham? Wahahaha nope. Abraham? Nope. 40 years wandering in the desert? Nope. David being monotheist? Nope, pagan as people come. There are old remnants of temples or monuments to their Biblical God and his wife, that pagan goddess the Bible tried to stamp out, as well as their Biblical god and Baal and a bunch of other “pagan” gods. So, Jehovah was just one of several gods that were worshipped. There is evidence of a King David uniting several of the tribes into some semblance of a kingdom, even a coin with king David on it. But the people of David and Solomon worshiped a bunch of Gods, and as happened in many cultures, one god eventually killed off the others because his followers became more powerful and gained control, them stamped out worship of other gods.
I’m going to start a new post on this

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