God’s Intervention

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
User avatar
1smartdodog
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:51 pm

God’s Intervention

Post by 1smartdodog » Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:13 am

I don’t really want to be an atheist, problem is I don’t see anything I can specifically attribute to an intervening god. No amount of prayer or pleading ever made a difference. Sure I can find some coincidences that maybe I could attribute to god, but really whats the point. A lost toy found here or there is meaningless in the big picture. Science can explain in detail how the cosmos works for the most part so god is somewhat not relevant there. You can attribute things to god, but only because you want to. There is nothing that seems compelling enough to have to say god did that.

My best hope now seems to be a Diest. God may be there, but he is not intervening in any real way. What that means for an afterlife I have no idea.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
“Five percent of the people think; ten percent of the people think they think; and the other eighty-five percent would rather die than think.”
― Thomas A. Edison

User avatar
jfro18
Posts: 1923
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by jfro18 » Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:18 am

I feel like the "agnostic atheist" label is cliche at this point, but that's where I am.

There's just no reason to see any kind of intervening God out there given that 10,000 kids a day die from starvation and you know a lot of them are praying for help.

And look at how random everything is when it comes to medicine, disease, car accidents, etc... that's not to say that a God *should* be constantly manipulating our existence, but at some point the complete lack of it should be taken for what it is.

So I think where you are makes sense... a belief that there's *something* out there bigger than us even if we can't understand, see, or experience it yet.

dogbite
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 1:28 pm
Location: SLC

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by dogbite » Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:03 am

Claims about God seem to only matter if there is an afterlife. Its there that all the benefits and punishment come.

So if God were to exist but there's no afterlife for us, then does God even matter?

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 4333
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by moksha » Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:55 pm

1smartdodog wrote:
Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:13 am
You can attribute things to god, but only because you want to. There is nothing that seems compelling enough to have to say god did that.
The idea of a god embracing you when you die can be comforting.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
A New Name
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:36 pm

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by A New Name » Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:36 am

Could Pascal's wager help you?

Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas if God does exist, he stands to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (an eternity in Hell).

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2128
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by Palerider » Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:06 am

King David prayed and fasted fervently that his child by Bathsheba would live but God did not intervene. It didn't change David's belief system to know that He didn't.

Whether a person believes that the Genesis story is mythical or historical there are some interesting precepts taught there. One of which is that Adam and Eve would live out their lives in sorrow. There is a cost associated with learning about and experiencing good and evil.

I think God intervenes when it suits His overall purpose and He also doesn't intervene when it suits his overall purpose. And not intervening may suit His and our purpose the majority of the time.

I'm of the opinion that we wouldn't be here in this life against our will. I don't think God forces His children into situations that they haven't preferred in the first place. In other words I think we bought into the hardships before ever coming to this life. It's a valued instruction that can be learned in no other way.

I wonder if when things go "right" for us do we automatically see that as God intervening on our behalf or is that always something that we achieved soley on our own merits?

So if an individual wants to go or feels led down the atheist road, I understand that. There really isn't much evidence for God's existence through the physical senses available to us.

But God's seeming "lack of intervention" in our lives wouldn't be a reason I would use to go there.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 1634
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by deacon blues » Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:34 pm

The wide variety of beliefs about God is staggering. Unreasoned belief in God is counterintuitive for me, So I apply mainly reason in my thinking about God. If there is a God that God has treated me very well. I can understand people not believing in God, and the God I tend to believe in is more gracious and forgiving than I am, so it makes sense for me that God takes into account the many reasons not to believe in God. 8-) There have also been very beneficial events in my life that seem unlikely to be random. I can't explain them, and perhaps others could explain them away. I am aware that may not be true for everyone, like Job, my luck could change.

PS For me, the Job story reads like profound literature rather than a historical account.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

dogbite
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 1:28 pm
Location: SLC

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by dogbite » Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:19 pm

A New Name wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:36 am
Could Pascal's wager help you?

Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas if God does exist, he stands to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (an eternity in Hell).
This assumes a much simpler religious landscape than actually exists.

Which God? Even among Christian denominations you could be damned for the wrong choice of faction. The odds don't favor Pascal's choice.

The problem is that God is going to reward or punish you based on which set of unverifiable assumptions you choose to adopt. You have no information or method for differentiating which claim is valid and leads to reward.

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2128
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by Palerider » Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:41 pm

dogbite wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:19 pm

Which God? Even among Christian denominations you could be damned for the wrong choice of faction.....

The problem is that God is going to reward or punish you based on which set of unverifiable assumptions you choose to adopt. You have no information or method for differentiating which claim is valid and leads to reward.
The strength in New Name's argument is "seek to believe in God."

By seeking we are saying that we're NOT making assumptions. We're looking.... we're asking questions. It's called humility.

And although other Christian religions may have themselves convinced of the correctness of their way and be judgemental, who cares? What God cares about is that you're looking.

"Seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given you."

In the Greek the inference or connotation here is to keep seeking continually. It doesn't mean you will get instantaneous answers. It's an ongoing process. I doubt that God is going to condemn someone who spent their life continually seeking for Him.

Being absolutely "correct" isn't nearly as important to God as the fact that we're trying.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

dogbite
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 1:28 pm
Location: SLC

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by dogbite » Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:12 pm

But that itself is but one set of unverifiable assumptions. Why should I think that over a more dogmatic approach or maybe a Deist one? Or a Hindu or Buddhist one?

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2128
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by Palerider » Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:46 pm

dogbite wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:12 pm
But that itself is but one set of unverifiable assumptions. Why should I think that over a more dogmatic approach or maybe a Deist one? Or a Hindu or Buddhist one?
Where is the assumption?

That an individual is testing a theory? Testing a statement or principle? That an individual is seeking an answer?

You shouldn't "think that over" any of the others you have mentioned. Test them all.

What one shouldn't assume is that none of them are correct.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

dogbite
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 1:28 pm
Location: SLC

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by dogbite » Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:48 pm

The set of possible beliefs is infinite.

Nor can any one of them be tested to a demonstrable conclusion. There is no verifiable way to choose between them.

So rather than assuming that none of them are correct, I'll reserve belief for where there's demonstrable reason to go further.

No form of God yet warrants belief.

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2128
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by Palerider » Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:38 pm

dogbite wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:48 pm
The set of possible beliefs is infinite.

Nor can any one of them be tested to a demonstrable conclusion. There is no verifiable way to choose between them.

So rather than assuming that none of them are correct, I'll reserve belief for where there's demonstrable reason to go further.

No form of God yet warrants belief.
Maybe you just haven't looked hard enough.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

dogbite
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 1:28 pm
Location: SLC

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by dogbite » Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:50 pm

Palerider wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:38 pm
]

Maybe you just haven't looked hard enough.
Meaningless. You have no basis to judge my search. There is no scale that "hard enough" means anything anyway. Its the same kind of answer as god just hasn't answered yet that Mormons hand out.

"We have to trust that He knows what�s best. God answers prayers in the form of 'yes', 'no' and 'wait'. Sometimes the hardest answer to accept is 'wait'. It�s difficult to be left in limbo, wondering how God will handle our problem, but we must have faith that He will!" - Christianity.com

'Yes', 'No' and 'Wait'. That is how God answers prayers. You have probably heard this a thousand times, and you believe it completely.

'Yes', 'No' and 'Wait' may sound comforting, but here is the thing that I would like to help you understand.

'Yes', 'No' and 'Wait' is actually an optical illusion.

Let me show you how this illusion works. Imagine that I put a jug of milk on the counter, and I say to you, "Pray to the jug of milk." I tell you that if you pray to the jug of milk, it will answer all your prayers. You are skeptical, but you agree to try it. You pray to the jug of milk to give you 1,000.

Now I say to you, "The jug of milk answers prayers in the form of 'yes', 'no' and 'wait'. Let's see what happens."

What is going to happen? There are three scenarios:

Scenario 1: Out of the blue, a check for $1,100 arrives in the mail tomorrow. It is an unexpected tax refund check from the IRS. I say to you, "See! The jug of milk answered your prayer!"

Scenario 2: Seven weeks later, out of the blue, you get a cost-of-living raise and it happens to increase your salary by $1,200 per year. I say to you, "See! The jug of milk answered your prayer! You just had to wait patiently."

Scenario 3: Nothing happens for six months. You ask me, "Why?" I say, "We have to trust that the milk jug knows what�s best. Let's be patient."

Look at what happened: In scenarios 1 and 2, the jug of milk really did answer your prayers. And in scenario 3 we are waiting for it to answer your prayer, knowing that it is doing what is best for you.

Now let me ask you: Will you get down on your knees and worship this jug of milk?

User avatar
1smartdodog
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:51 pm

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by 1smartdodog » Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:25 pm

God I am right here. If you need me to so something just pay me a visit and I will be glad to listen. Please no speaking through prophets, or old books. I don’t like guessing what you want.

In the meantime i will just go about my business muddling through as though you are not there because I dont have any reason to believe you are. Sorry that is the best I can do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
“Five percent of the people think; ten percent of the people think they think; and the other eighty-five percent would rather die than think.”
― Thomas A. Edison

hmb
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:43 am

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by hmb » Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:03 am

dogbite wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:19 pm

This assumes a much simpler religious landscape than actually exists.

Which God? Even among Christian denominations you could be damned for the wrong choice of faction. The odds don't favor Pascal's choice.

I would think that a truly loving God would know how you lived and felt. Humans have a terrible way of putting all kinds of twists and spins on religion. I wouldn't even worry about which denomination or which religion; that's the judgement of man. Denominations are created by people. People are people. How you treat others and doing for others should be enough. Symbolism and ritual muddies the simple.

dogbite
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 1:28 pm
Location: SLC

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by dogbite » Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:27 am

The universe doesn't seem to argue for a loving god.

Gatorbait
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:13 pm

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by Gatorbait » Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:26 am

Perhaps there is no god as defined by the Christian faiths, there is something that binds our souls. Maybe, maybe not.

Yet still and all, perhaps there is a spiritual realm that we don't understand. Something that connects one human person to another- not all this families can be together forever talk, but a connection. Something that makes us have compassion for someone who is being treated unjustly or the like, hurt some way that is no fault of their own, like the Ukrainians who are dealing with a diabolical Russian leader who is evil through and through.

The thing that makes someone give up their life for a greater cause that seems to be buried deep within them. Heroes. Saints, so to speak.

Ever lose someone really close to you by suicide? It changes your take on things a bit. The loss is profound. Once they are there with you, and talking to you, and you feel them and love them, and then they are gone. Yet their spirit somehow remains.

There seems to be something that ties us to each other somehow. What is that? Anyone experience that?
"Let no man count himself righteous who permits a wrong he could avert". N.N. Riddell

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2128
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by Palerider » Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:37 am

1smartdodog wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:25 pm
God I am right here. If you need me to so something just pay me a visit and I will be glad to listen. Please no speaking through prophets, or old books. I don’t like guessing what you want.

In the meantime i will just go about my business muddling through as though you are not there because I dont have any reason to believe you are. Sorry that is the best I can do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Luke 16:29-31

"Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

dogbite
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 1:28 pm
Location: SLC

Re: God’s Intervention

Post by dogbite » Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:53 am

Written by an unknown author many decades later, who wasn't there, (ergo, not a witness, and the claim to be a direct follower of Paul is highly dubious both by timing and frequent forger practice.) from questionable source material and hearsay.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests